D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

[Maxperson]

Hey @Minigiant : does my Godzilla qualify as threat to a group of 20th level PCs? It is been a while since I checked, but I am pretty good at following the DMG guidelines (stretched a bit here for sure, with one caveat). Also, the multiple uses of the mythic trait is bit beyond RAW.

Godzilla DM'd for me for about 15 years. My old DM does motion capture and has been Godzilla in the last 3 movies.

 

[Maxperson]

That was the idea! I do have ideas to simplify it at some point. Started too when dragonlance came out, but never finished.

The only thing I saw in that write-up that I'm not sure about is the breath weapon getting rid of spells on those it hits. I'm all for dragons being able to do that, but big hot fire breath doesn't seem to me to be the right vehicle for it.

 

[nevin]

Even moreso than with other adventures, high level adventures need to be playtested. A lot. With diverse groups.

And the notion of tightly scripted campaigns needs to be replaced at high levels with generalized outlines with NPC goals and the understanding that things will change on the fly as the NPCs collide with the PCs. Instead of trying to script out every beat, just acknowledge that the NPCs (and DM) will have to adapt on the fly.

This....At low levels you can keep the game roughly where you want it and you have a good idea of what your party could pull off. At high levels give up knowing what can be done. Keep lists of what your players have done, enemies friends etc, and accept the fact that tomorrow they could jump to another plane and spend the next 3 or 4 sessions on some thing you'd never have thought of.

 

[nevin]

Just to reiterate, this thread is about design problems and solutions. I don't want it to get bogged down into "fuzzy" discussions about what is an appropriate kind of adventure for high level characters. High levels characters can go on a dungeon adventure or a McGuffin Quest or any of the other types of adventures other tier characters go on. But high level play presents specific design problems -- that is the purpose here.

redesigning the game so that High level adventures are more controllable and similar to low level adventures is simply forcing high level characters to play low level games. There are real world example's that are applicable. When Navy Seals show up with all the tech and back up the US can provide it's not the same thing as sending in a company of Army rangers.

High level Characters are The superhero's of the world, they are Drizzt fighting 100,000 orcs or Raistlin marching into Hell to fix things. If you come up with a game design that put's it all on rails for easy DM'ing then it's not high level adventuring it's just characters with more hitpoints doing the same thing.

 

[dave2008]

The only thing I saw in that write-up that I'm not sure about is the breath weapon getting rid of spells on those it hits. I'm all for dragons being able to do that, but big hot fire breath doesn't seem to me to be the right vehicle for it.

Stalker0 and I work-shopped the idea a bit. Basically the idea was dragon fire, particularly at this age, is beyond normal fire. It is magical fire with magical properties. Also, since the breath weapon is kind of an icon dragon thing, it felt right to add it on. However, I am open to other ideas.

 

[dave2008]

Godzilla DM'd for me for about 15 years. My old DM does motion capture and has been Godzilla in the last 3 movies.

Well that is completely awesome! That is my dream job!

Well, after being responsible for the next Godzilla design that is!

 

[Reynard]

Dragon magic is a very common trope. I think they should have spells. They should also have dragony abilities that make high level paladins soil their chainmail shorts.

I'm trying to think of a (western) mythical or literary dragon that is also a wizard and am coming up empty. Dragons that cast spells is a D&Dism as far asi can tell.

 

[Reynard]

redesigning the game so that High level adventures are more controllable and similar to low level adventures is simply forcing high level characters to play low level games. There are real world example's that are applicable. When Navy Seals show up with all the tech and back up the US can provide it's not the same thing as sending in a company of Army rangers.

High level Characters are The superhero's of the world, they are Drizzt fighting 100,000 orcs or Raistlin marching into Hell to fix things. If you come up with a game design that put's it all on rails for easy DM'ing then it's not high level adventuring it's just characters with more hitpoints doing the same thing.

I don't disagree with that, but am not sure what it has to do with the bit you quoted.

 

[dave2008]

I'm trying to think of a (western) mythical or literary dragon that is also a wizard and am coming up empty. Dragons that cast spells is a D&Dism as far asi can tell.

Predating D&D? Tolkien dragons were known for magical dragon speech (glarung and smaug both had it).

However, it is sufficient that it is a D&D thing. 1e, 2e, 3e all had spellcasting dragons. 5e does as a variant. Now, I am not personally a big fan of spellcasting dragons myself, but I think it should be an option, and I do like magical dragons (of which there a lot in literature).

 

[Maxperson]

I'm trying to think of a (western) mythical or literary dragon that is also a wizard and am coming up empty. Dragons that cast spells is a D&Dism as far asi can tell.

Think novels. The dragons in the Raymond Feists novels use magic. The dragons in Jim Butcher's Dresden books use magic. And in several other novels/series. It's not a new thing or a D&D thing.