D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Hussar]

Again, you're conflating two very different things. It is not an absence of empathy for a product in the world to exist, without malice, and for that product to make reference to a subject that someone might find offensive. I understand that I am not going to convince you of that, but yet, there it is.

If you have an issue with the product, don't buy it. If you do buy it and bring it to a table, and someone tells you that you that they have a problem with it, then don't play it. Or edit it so everyone is comfortable. It's also okay to tell them that the rest of the table wants to play the game the way it is and they are free to find another table that better suits their needs.

Yes because WotC publishing and promotion a product like this is a fantastic look for the hobby. Or conversely, opening it up for other people to do the same is going to be a fantastic look for the hobby.

Sorry. You guys had about forty years of this. If you want it, it’s all right there for you. But the days of telling anyone that doesn’t feel comfortable in a hobby that promotes products that minimalize and white wash the horrific practices that still impact people today are over.

I’m sorry that means you no longer get products that are personally tailored for you. But it does mean that after forty years or so, I don’t have to worry that much that my pretend elf game is going to include price lists for slaves.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Again, find a third way.

Ignore button is right there, man. You don't have to read anything I post ever again.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Ignore button is right there, man. You don't have to read anything I post ever again.

I don't do that. If you are going to reply to me, and you would like me to respond, don't make it an insult. Have some substance.

 

[Bedrockgames]

There was guy named Jack Chick who published a series of religious pamphlets in comic book form starting in the 1960s that eventually became known as Chick Tracts (Wiki Link). Many of these tracts expressed bigoted ideas including anti-Catholic sentiment, homophobia, anti-Muslim, and one about rock music, even Christian rock, is the devil's work. One infamous tract amonst gamers was one called "Dark Dungeons" all about the dangers of D&D with Marcie and Debbie. When Marcie's character Black Leaf dies, she's expelled from the game. Debbie's character survives, and it's at this point the DM offers to teach her "real" spells.

While Debbie's having a good time, Marcie is so distraught over the death of Black Leaf that she ends up committing suicide. But the story ends on a happy note because this prompts Debbie to abandon D&D and get saved. Okay, it's not so happy for Marcie or Black Leaf I guess.

The idea that RPGs are going to invoke such intense emotions as to be harmful is rather ludicrous. It was a ludicrous idea when Pat Pulling and Jack Chick argued that point and it's no less ludicrous when others argue it for different reasons.

lol. thanks for the context. I recall seeing that somewhere but didn't the name didn't register.

I think the things they were worried about during the satanic panic were more about people blurring the line between fantasy and reality (my guidance counselor was all in on this in high school, and when I was younger my parents disallowed D&D and confiscated my metal albums----they eventually saw the error in this). I do think some of what posters here are arguing is a distinct argument from that (I share a lot of your concerns I think, but I do think it is important to understand what peoples positions are), which is more about how the content will make some players feel.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Yes because WotC publishing and promotion a product like this is a fantastic look for the hobby. Or conversely, opening it up for other people to do the same is going to be a fantastic look for the hobby.

Sorry. You guys had about forty years of this. If you want it, it’s all right there for you. But the days of telling anyone that doesn’t feel comfortable in a hobby that promotes products that minimalize and white wash the horrific practices that still impact people today are over.

I’m sorry that means you no longer get products that are personally tailored for you. But it does mean that after forty years or so, I don’t have to worry that much that my pretend elf game is going to include price lists for slaves.

Forty years? You guys? Personally tailored to me? As in, I advocate slavery? Lol. I'm talking about a freedom of speech issue. You know, basic democracy. What are you talking about?

That's not really acceptable as a response. Please elaborate.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Hm. Only available on Apple TV in Canada. The write up looks interesting. I'll find a way to get a look at this.

It is a very grim film in the end, but quite good from what I remember. About a brother and sister in Japan trying to survive as the war ends and things collapse around them leaving them to fend for themselves. Again it has been a long time since I saw it but back in the 90s it was something people would often show you to demonstrate that anime was not all like Akira or Ranma 1/2. Wish I still had this one on DVD (I lent it to someone and forgot to get it back)

 

[Hussar]

.

The idea that RPGs are going to invoke such intense emotions as to be harmful is rather ludicrous. It was a ludicrous idea when Pat Pulling and Jack Chick argued that point and it's no less ludicrous when others argue it for different reasons.

Harmful? That’s your word. I would say uncomfortable. Feeling unwelcome. Feeling like the horrors of history are being whitewashed and swept under the carpet so a bunch of people can enjoy their pretend elf game.

Good grief. WotC pits out a minstrelsy picture in their book and gets absolutely crucified. You want them to publish a setting where slavery is commonplace and acceptable in most of the setting?

I’m still waiting for anyone to tell me what the upside for WotC or fandom in general is here. How in the world is this going to be a good look for the hobby?

Go into your flgs and there’s a setting filled with incredibly tone deaf material being promoted by WotC. Yeah that’s a great look. Just hope no one tries to cosplay. Yikes.

I can just see Critical Role taking this out for a spin. That’s going to win all sorts of good will for the hobby.

 

[MGibster]

Yes because WotC publishing and promotion a product like this is a fantastic look for the hobby. Or conversely, opening it up for other people to do the same is going to be a fantastic look for the hobby.

You're absolutely right. A Dark Sun setting is simply untenable these days. Maybe in 30 years?

I think the things they were worried about during the satanic panic were more about people blurring the line between fantasy and reality (my guidance counselor was all in on this in high school, and when I was younger my parents disallowed D&D and confiscated my metal albums----they eventually saw the error in this).

Yes. And blurring the line between fantasy and reality is the position some people are arguing from here.

 

[MGibster]

Good grief. WotC pits out a minstrelsy picture in their book and gets absolutely crucified. You want them to publish a setting where slavery is commonplace and acceptable in most of the setting?

I've already gone on record as agreeing that WotC can't publish Dark Sun today. I might not like it, but I recognize the reality. And Dark Sun had its chance. I'd rather WotC publish something else. But they're doing a terrible job with settings right now.

 

[Hussar]

Forty years? You guys? Personally tailored to me? As in, I advocate slavery? Lol. I'm talking about a freedom of speech issue. You know, basic democracy. What are you talking about?

That's not really acceptable as a response. Please elaborate.

Sorry. This is a commercial product produced by a business. Freedom of speech does not apply.