D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Fighter

[Mistwell]

It's also worth noting that one thing Treantmonk did but didn't make explicit was to min max the Champion under 2014 rules, and to do this picked a Vuman with a combat feat (I think PAM) at first level, something that's impossible in OneD&D rules. Putting the classic fighter an entire combat feat ahead.

He did make it explicit. He's using the prior optimized Fighter.

 

[Mistwell]

I think it shows that he knew that was an assumption that was in debate. And he doesn't present it that way.

OK. So that's an outright lie. There is no rational way to make the claim you made if you watch the video. Here it is, for others to see what you just did.

We're done Chaosmancer. Not sure why you are so aggressive on this topic but I am not interested in what you have to say anymore given your ongoing behavior. Wish you'd made some different decisions on this one.

 

[ZetaShift]

So, I finally got a chance to watch this video, and frankly both you and Treantmonk... I really want to say it is borderline disingenuous to my sensibilities how this was presented and done.
[...]

Thank you bruh, I felt the video was so disingenuous since it hinges on powergaming to the max and playing in an ultra specific way in order to determine damage. Even then, these are the feats doing the numbers, not the base fighter.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Just for my own bemusement, I decided to do a quick comparison between the old Great Weapon Master and the new Great Weapon Master, because I have a hunch from the numbers, but I wanted to be sure.

OGWM
0.35x21.3x4 = 29.82
0.1x6.3x4 = 2.52
Total for old 32.34 DPR

NGWM
0.6x11.3x4 = 27.12
0.1x6.3x4 = 2.52
+5 added to a single attack in the set, once per turn (prof bonus at level)
Total for new 34.64 DPR

With advantage I think that changes.
A/OGWM
0.58x21.3x4 = 49.45
0.19x6.3x4 = 4.79
Total for old 54.34 DPR

A/NGWM
0.83x11.3x4 = 37.52
0.19x6.3x4 = 4.79
+5 added to a single attack in the set, once per turn (prof bonus at level)
Total for new 47.31 DPR


Okay, so without advantage, the new feat is stronger, and with advantage, the old feat is stronger. Guess that makes sense for what I would expect. Still good to see the numbers.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Thank you bruh, I felt the video was so disingenuous since it hinges on powergaming to the max and playing in an ultra specific way in order to determine damage. Even then, these are the feats doing the numbers, not the base fighter.

To be fair, I don't think it really relies on powergaming to the max (that ceiling is way higher) or that you need to play an ultra specific way per se (though it does only analyze a single combo and doesn't account for any other combination of weapons, feats, or masteries). And, again, to be fair, I don't blame him too much for not going through and analyzing other common types of fighters, since it seems his goal was simply to see if losing the old GWM feat gimped the fighter.

But it really does come down to the feats, which makes sense, because without the feats... they are identical except one has an ability the other doesn't. Which again, obviously leads to one being better than the other.


Edit: And I'm blocked. Figures. I was going to respond to Mistwell but I guess there is no point.

 

[mellored]

So every spell in the game scales, because your spell save DC increases? Again, that isn't how we generally talk about "scaling". We don't say "well, Vampiric Touch scales because my spell attack modifier increased"

If you got advantage on Vampiric Touch at higher levels, then triple advantage, and quadruple advantage, then yes. That would be scaling.

 

[Undrave]

Yep, only a fighter can use a ranged weapon attack to knock a flying creature prone.

Warlock can also knock a flying creature prone, and I be other spellcasters can too, but only fighter's can do it with a ranged weapon attack.

The Battlemaster could already do that though, with Tripping Attack.

But if I push them over a cliff or into a pit trap I don't need to follow them.

Nah, follow them down the cliff with your Monk soft landing ability and keep punching!

 

[codo]

Okay, so without advantage, the new feat is stronger, and with advantage, the old feat is stronger. Guess that makes sense for what I would expect. Still good to see the numbers.

One thing you are overlooking is is the new Great Weapon Master feat also gives you +1 strength. That lets the new fighter not need to spend as many ability score increases upping his strength. A fighter can start with a 17 strength and by 8th level they can have Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, and Charger as well as a 20 Strength.

Just adding Charger adds an average 4.5 damage a round. That puts your new fighter's damage at 6.9 more than the old without advantage, and only 2.53 points behind if they have advantage.

I think people are seriously underestimating how powerful it is that all of the feats now give a stat boost. A new fighter can basically take twice as many feats as an old one. I was playing around and built a level 20 fighter and it is ridiculous how many feats a fighter can take, without sacrificing their ability scores.

I started with 17 STR, 12 DEX, 15 CON, 8 INT, 14 WIS, 8 Cha. At level 20 I had 21 STR, 14 DEX, 16 CON, 8 INT, 15 WIS, 8 Cha with Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, Charger, Heavy Armor Master, Mage Slayer, Sentinel, and Resilient (Wisdom) and Epic Boon of Irresistible Offense.

The new fighter is Amazing!

Edit: I was just looking over the mastery properties in a little more detail, looking at different possible synergies between them. Correct me if I am wrong here, but a level 18 fighter can make up to 15 ATTACKS in one round, in every thing line up! All it requires is have Polearm Master and two weapon fighting feats.

Attack 1: Any one handed weapon. Attack 2: offhand attack with nick for free and sheath both weapons Attack 3: Draw Halberd and attack. Attack 4: Halberd free attack with cleave. Attack 5: Halberd. Attack 6: Halberd. Attacks 7-12: action surge to repeat 1-6. Attack 13: bonus action Halberd attack. Attack 14: Reaction opportunity attack. Attack 15: Haste Spell.

Yep, Fighters are AWESOME!

 

[Neonchameleon]

One thing you are overlooking is is the new Great Weapon Master feat also gives you +1 strength. That lets the new fighter not need to spend as many ability score increases upping his strength. A fighter can start with a 17 strength and by 8th level they can have Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, and Charger as well as a 20 Strength.

This runs head first into diminishing returns after level 8 however. Anyone can and probably should start at Str 17 in One D&D, and fighters have three feats by level 8 meaning they have two primary stat boosts by level 8, putting them two feats ahead of their old equivalents.

There are however only so many "A-tier" feats. By my reckoning it's Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, Sentinel, Shield Master, and Charger, of which some are mutually exclusive, and the old school version +2 Str was also A-tier. (Old GWM is seriously overrated by many because it used to be S-tier when combined with a reliable source of advantage but was A-tier otherwise). A level 8 new style fighter should therefore be about two A-tier feats ahead of the old style by level 8 and a barbarian by level 12 - but the gap doesn't grow after that point and possibly shrinks slightly as feats like Mage Slayer become "best remaining choices".

I'm not at all sure of the strength of the two weapon fighting feat with the new weapon properties but losing its AC bump but suspect it's B-tier. I think Grappler could be pushed into A-Tier with the new Unarmed Strike rules if they made it a bonus action to grab so quasi-TWF. And I think Athlete and Mage Slayer both require a little more to make them pop.

I started with 17 STR, 12 DEX, 15 CON, 8 INT, 14 WIS, 8 Cha.

You've slipped a stat point there if you were using the Standard Array. It should be 14 Con or 13 Int.

Edit: I was just looking over the mastery properties in a little more detail, looking at different possible synergies between them. Correct me if I am wrong here, but a level 18 fighter can make up to 15 ATTACKS in one round, in every thing line up! All it requires is have Polearm Master and two weapon fighting feats.

Attack 1: Any one handed weapon. Attack 2: offhand attack with nick for free and sheath both weapons Attack 3: Draw Halberd and attack. Attack 4: Halberd free attack with cleave. Attack 5: Halberd. Attack 6: Halberd. Attacks 7-12: action surge to repeat 1-6. Attack 13: bonus action Halberd attack. Attack 14: Reaction opportunity attack. Attack 15: Haste Spell.

As a DM dropping/stowing two melee weapons in the middle of an attack sequence to draw a halberd is "rolled up newspaper" time.

 

[Neonchameleon]

He did make it explicit. He's using the prior optimized Fighter.

What I'd have liked would have been a sentence something like "This was the best choice under the old rules because it got a power feat. It's likely that there will be a better one under the new rules because you can no longer do that". Or possibly I just missed it.