D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Fighter

[codo]

I think "how do the two mix and match?" is a legitimate question.

It may be a legitimate question, but is it actually useful? I don't know about you but I am not going to let players pick and choose between the old and new versions of the feats. Players are free to use any feat that hasn't been updated, but if a feat has been updated I won't let them pick and chose between the old and the new.

And the new fighter is from memory almost strictly stronger without feats.

I would like to see your calculations on this. I just don't see how that is possible. By level 8 a new fighter can take Great Weapon Master, Charger, and Polearm Master and still have a 20 STR, I just don't see how a no feat character can keep up. The feat less fighter can start with a 16 in STR instead of a 17, but at best that can give you +2 to a tertiary stat. They still need 2 feats to get their STR to 20. The only advantage a featless fighter has over one with feats is a +2 to con and +2 to a tertiary stat. I just don't see how that can match Great Weapon Master, Charger, and Polearm Master.

 

[Stalker0]

What I'm saying is that the subclasses are too tightly nested into the base class to try to really say anything about them isolated.

Some base classes are weak and have strong subclasses. Some classes are strong and have weak subclasses. That dynamic might not remain stagnant across editions. They may want fighter subclasses to be where the power is.

this is quite true, and you cannot compare class X to class Y without including subclasses.

For example, if someone is trying to say a "Fighter sucks and a wizard rules", when comparing them I have to include at least one subclass for each to make a meaningful comparison. Because yes subclasses are NOT balanced across classes, some get way more of their secret sauce from the subclass than others.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

For example, if someone is trying to say a "Fighter sucks and a wizard rules", when comparing them I have to include at least one subclass for each to make a meaningful comparison. Because yes subclasses are NOT balanced across classes, some get way more of their secret sauce from the subclass than others.

The problem being that subclasses are not currently balanced with each other and some are more circumstantial then others. I hate when people try to use "Well if you take no damage spells and no defense spells and this weird subclass and compare it to eldritch knight psi night or rune knight the fighter is better"
Yeah, and if I give the wizard all 8s in stats and the fighter all 20s that does too... but when all else is equal is what matters.

 

[Undrave]

It may be a legitimate question, but is it actually useful? I don't know about you but I am not going to let players pick and choose between the old and new versions of the feats. Players are free to use any feat that hasn't been updated, but if a feat has been updated I won't let them pick and chose between the old and the new.

Supposedly you can play a 2014 Fighter in the same party as a OneD&D Fighter, each using their own feat rules etc. In that case the comparison would be useful.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

I don't know about you but I am not going to let players pick and choose between the old and new versions of the feats. Players are free to use any feat that hasn't been updated, but if a feat has been updated I won't let them pick and chose between the old and the new.

Supposedly you can play a 2014 Fighter in the same party as a OneD&D Fighter, each using their own feat rules etc. In that case the comparison would be useful.

this is a big argument now as to HOW player focused the back compatible is. Like if I show up with my warlock hexblade tomelock useing the current rules and another player has a pact of the blade form play test, how many DMs are going to have both in there game?
What if we both take lucky, can I keep useing it as is now and them as is from playtest?

 

[codo]

Supposedly you can play a 2014 Fighter in the same party as a OneD&D Fighter, each using their own feat rules etc. In that case the comparison would be useful.

If someone really wanted to play a 2014 fighter, Ok, they have to use the 2014 rules. The intention behind making the game backward compatible isn't to give players two option and let them pick whichever one is more powerful. It is to let players use both 2014 characters and 1D&D characters together at the same table, and to let 1D&D players use old options that haven't been updated yet.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

If someone really wanted to play a 2014 fighter, Ok, they have to use the 2014 rules. The intention behind making the game backward compatible isn't to give players two option and let them pick whichever one is more powerful. It is to let players use both 2014 characters and 1D&D characters together at the same table, and to let 1D&D players use old options that haven't been updated yet.

I don't know... why would you let the old GWM in with it's -5 to hit +10 to damage when the update removed that?

 

[codo]

Truthfully I don't think any of my players would try that. I meant it more in case I had a new or casual player that only had the 2014 PHB and didn't want to learn all the new rules. If I had a player who wanted to use the 2014 rules to build a cookie cutter "optimized build", I would just tell them no, and to stop being a power gaming munchkin.

I think the difference is that I play D&D with my friends, not internet or FLGS randoms. I don't need, or even want the rules to be a weapon I can use to control and rein in unruly players. I play with people that, if we have any disagreements or problems, can discuss them like mature adults. If you have disruptive or problematic players, there is nothing the rules can actually do to stop them. No mater how detailed and complicated the rules get, if you have a player that doesn't want to play nicely with others, there is nothing the rules can do to actually stop them if they are determined to cause problems.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

Truthfully I don't think any of my players would try that.

yeah, not withstanding someone doing it in bad faith, my bet is no one in a group updating would even try to do it unless they had a VERY good reason

I meant it more in case I had a new or casual player that only had the 2014 PHB

yeah, I bet for a year or two after the 2024 update we will see confusion set in for things like this. It's why I hoped the book cover says it's in some way 'revised and changed'

 

[Neonchameleon]

It may be a legitimate question, but is it actually useful? I don't know about you but I am not going to let players pick and choose between the old and new versions of the feats. Players are free to use any feat that hasn't been updated, but if a feat has been updated I won't let them pick and chose between the old and the new.

This was the basic question. Is the new fighter stronger than the old fighter or are they stronger only due to the new feats? So if you gave the old fighter the new feats would they be stronger?

I would like to see your calculations on this.

We're at cross-purposes. I meant that if you have the two versions of the fighter picking from the same pool of feats (or forced to take only ASIs) I think the new fighter is still slightly stronger. It's not just the impact of feats that's buffed the fighter.