D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Fighter

[Stalker0]

Um... yes, there IS a push for the DnD Fighter to do more stuff like that. What do you mean there isn't a push? And until I showed you the real numbers, you were all gung-ho that that was a standard for DnD Fighters, but now that you see the real numbers involved you go "oh, well, guess DnD fighter's shouldn't be allowed to do that."

Why do the numbers matter more to you than the scene? You were completely fine with that scene as a standard until I showed you that it would mean buffing the fighter to reach it, and now it is some unobtainable goal?!

Whoa there partner, I was agreeing with you. My sentence was saying, "I agree that fighters don't have abilities that push that kind of narrative". Aka there is nothing that would allow a fighter to do that level of "super strength move".

But no one wants the subclass to be the standard. They want the CLASS to be the standard. I don't understand why this is so difficult. Whenever we discuss any caster, any druid, any cleric, any sorcerer, any wizard, any Bard we can talk about the class and their abilities no problem. The second we try and talk about a martial like the Fighter, we immediately have to instead talk about the subclasses

I disagree, in 5e there is no class conversion that doesn't include subclass. They are a package deal, and the deal is not an even split. Some classes get more of their mechanical "oomph" from subclasses, others less, but you can never ignore them.

You know who else could pull of that Thor feat? Any Half-orc. Any Cleric. Any Paladin. Any divine Soul Sorcerer. And they can do it NINE LEVELS SOONER.

The entire point of this debate was your note that "high level fighters aren't even Captain America". I've already agreed with you that magic classes can be at thor level, so this point is repetitive.

So if every single mage is Thor level, why can't every single Fighter be Thor level?

Because it requires a fantastical narrative that some people are hung up about. And as I said at the very start of this..... WOTC has already chosen their side. They have agreed that fighters are rooted in some level of reality that prevents that kind of "thor like power". So pushing for that is just yelling into the storm. You can get some small adjustments, but you aren't going to suddenly see a new fighter that is hurling that kind of juice.

 

[Stalker0]

"As the paladin falls, decapitated, the cleric runs to his side. With tears flowing down their face, they begin casting a spell and in a flash of light, the paladin rises with his head intact. Weakened, the cleric falls to his knees."

"How did you do that?!" The rogue player asked.

"My deity saw my faith and answered my prayer. With divine intervention, they were able to heal."

Vs

"As the paladin falls, decapitated, the rogue runs to his side. With tears flowing down their face, they begin to pull out their surgical equipment and in a few moments, the paladin rises with his head intact. The rogue swipes sweat from his eyebrows."

"How did you do that?!" The cleric player asked.

"Oh, I'm just really good at medicine."

There is a mechanical problem here though. With magic there is a explicit limit to what you can do in the form of spell slots. With skill checks there is not.

Say the PCs find themselves on a battlefield of recently wounded and dead soliders. The cleric could raise 1, maybe 2 of them.....but using the note above, the rogue can raise 100.

The "mundane" has the power of being "at-will", and that cannot be ignored.

That's why I don't mind fighters being weaker than casters....to a point. Because sure if you can nova and do this amazing thing....but its once a day, that is still balanced against a lesser thing I can do all day every day. Its just right now the gap between those things is too wide.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Eyebite was my example of a spell that doesn't just work and is a perfectly balanced spell that gets ignored for spells that do just work.

Fireball just works since it guarantees damage and its range can avoid counterspell. Wall of Force just works as it forces the enemy to engage with it whether they have disintegrate or teleportation or not.

Well-designed spell: Teleport, risk of failure. Poorly designed spell: misty step, extremely reliable.
How to make spell more balanced: cannot move the next turn.

Well-designed spell: Scrying, failure prevents use for another day.
Poorly designed spell: Find Familiar
Fix: Not a ritual, if familiar dies, lose significant amount of HP.
All of those are internally consistent with D&D lore, logic, and immersion via inherent magic. I've already said I'm fine with inherent magic in the fighter but let's be sure to call a spade a spade.

Being obnoxious to the point that people don't want to use it is not 'well designed'.

 

[Vaalingrade]

And also, 'it's okay if it's not interesting or fun because you can be uninteresting and not fun all the time' is not the balm to the wound some might think it to be.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Magic =/= spells.

Perhaps "supernatural" would be a better term. Nearly every class in D&D is supernatural. Monks don't cast spells, but their abilities are supernatural. Barbarian rage is supernatural. Psionics are supernatural. Even a dragonborn's breath or aasimar's wings are supernatural. Most D&D is supernatural. Except fighters. And rogues. They have absolutely nothing magical or supernatural about them.

Change that.

Call out that they tap into supernatural abilities beyond mortal ken. Make it a super soldier serum or divine birthright or multiple choice. State they are in fact more than mortal and then let them chuck mountains. But be clear it's supernatural power like ki, primal spirits or the Music of Creation that's powering it.

Do we need to call out that when a dragon flies that's supernatural? The D&D world has never followed the laws of physics.

And what is a non-supernatural level 20 fighter and how can they meaningfully be considered on the same level as a level 20 wizard?

Also when Batman kicks a steel door off its hinges he is explicitly not supernatural. But no human could do that. Are we banning Batman now?

 

[Asisreo]

And also, 'it's okay if it's not interesting or fun because you can be uninteresting and not fun all the time' is not the balm to the wound some might think it to be.

On what authority do you have to tell what other people will find interesting and fun?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The Barbarian is hilariously getting (Str score as a minimum result) for 1/3 of the skills in the game (including Stealth, Intimidate and Perception) simply by raging first (which now lasts for 10 minutes and can be extended as a bonus action).

So your Barb is spamming guaranteed Ability check results of at least 18+ on Stealth, Perception, Intimidate, Survival etc skills more or less at will.

Fighter gets to be proficient in Persuasion, if he wants to.

Not quite the same for mine.

Now he gets to be conan.

 

[Remathilis]

Do we need to call out that when a dragon flies that's supernatural? The D&D world has never followed the laws of physics.

And what is a non-supernatural level 20 fighter and how can they meaningfully be considered on the same level as a level 20 wizard?

Also when Batman kicks a steel door off its hinges he is explicitly not supernatural. But no human could do that. Are we banning Batman now?

Depends what we're setting the limit at.

Batman kicking a steel door off the hinges is probably a high DC strength check. There are lots of ways you could simulate that. Advantage on strength checks, add prof bonus to str checks to break or bash things. Make a battlemaster maneuver that targets objects. Allow a fighter to raise his strength above 20. These are all things the fighter as written could be given. And I'm sure if you gave any or all to the fighter, it wouldn't move the needle on people complaining the fighter is too weak.

Which is where the "the fighter must be supernatural" comes from. You could have the fighter raise his strength and constitution to 30 and you're still going to have people complain it doesn't compare to a wizard's versatility. So if people are serious about "fixing" the problem, give them mythical abilities but explicitly say they are mythical. Then you can hurl boulders, jump mountains and make goblins pee their pants by gaze. But the problem is people still want fighters to do these things but represent Boromir or other nonmythical heroes. They don't want super soldiers or demigods or anything explicitly supernatural BUT they still want fighters to compete with the Masters of the Supernatural in spellcasters. They somehow want Drax and Hawkeye with the same power and versatility as Dr Strange. I'm sorry, I'll buy that Thor is an equal because he's a god or Captain Marvel because she's part Kree, but not "...and I have a bow and arrow" Hawkeye.

So that's my line. Drop the notion that the fighter (and rogue) represents Boromir and Bilbo and make them Captain America and Black Widow. Super soldiers who are enhanced by things not of normal origin. But don't give me Hulk-like abilities and Faramir origins.

 

[Eubani]

Here is an idea, create a list of legendary/mythical actions/activities tied to each skill or ability score and starting at level 12 and every even level after that martial characters can pick one. eg Forest Walk (Survival): By knowledge of how to find secret paths and raw stamina the travel time through any forest never takes more than one day.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So that's my line. Drop the notion that the fighter (and rogue) represents Boromir and Bilbo and make them Captain America and Black Widow. Super soldiers who are enhanced by things not of normal origin. But don't give me Hulk-like abilities and Faramir origins.

The fighter's origins are "They live in a world where magic is real and 20th level characters are possible." My line is if you don't want high level fighters in your game hard cap fighter levels at 10 or 11. If it makes you feel better when allowing high level fighters put some line in the game about how "all bodies absorb magic, especially in high magic environments. This physically empowers non-casters more than casters who don't let the magic settle so much."

And then, once you've done that where's the problem.

If you want your wizards casting magic almost all the time stop pretending that they fit Lord of the Rings. The wizards of Middle Earth were for practical purposes angels. So if we've got Faramir and a 5e wizard in the party one or both of them has wandered into the wrong subgenre.