D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[TwoSix]

The consequences of DND becoming self-referential have been disastrous for RPG players.

I'm not quite sure what you mean, or at least how that follows from my post. Can you elaborate?

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

Tell me one thing those people do that remotely is magical?

I will be honest and not have a lot of connan examples...
John Mclean shot down a helicopter with a car, survived being shot, blown up and still ran around perfectly fine, and often pulled tricks that no D&D fighter could.
Catwoman is my girl... read Hush she can survive a fight with mind controlled superman read the beginning of bat inc and she can jump from a building use a whip to catch a ledge and swing like spiderman.

All three of them are acceptably modeled with the current fighter or rogue.

what ability's is there to jump use a whip to swing let the whip go, swing it again to catch another ledge and keep swinging?
What ability's is there to climb a sheer surface?

lets do more out of combat... what power lets you charm someone that wont let you in into letting you in with only a few seconds?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Again, I'm going by the stats provided in this thread. He was not even in the top three of damage dealt. Not even close.

And in response to that I repeat what I already said.

 

[Krachek]

1. 'Mundane guy' is not in the class description for any class in D&D.
2. This reads a bit like "the ball boy for the team is just as important as the players on the field". It's not wrong exactly, but if the designers are going to put a class with ball boy capabilities on the roster next to professional ballplayers, they should give some guidance for how that person can feel useful during the game beyond carrying the towels.

You are missing the point.

The mundane guy is a fantasy Archetype. A character with only human capacity, with no magical, psionic, mutation, or surnatural power.
In front of some challenge he can simply do nothing without external help.
In front of a wall of force like in the OP the mundane guy can do nothing.
He need help, and that need for help is a key motor for many fantasy. It create motivation, interaction, satisfaction when the needed help is acquire or give. Making the mundane guy crush the wall of force with his bare hands like a bag of hit points, make disappear this key motor of fantasy.

Hopefully DnD offer classes that are quite effective into the identity of the mundane guy. Some Rogue and fighter build are completely non magical but solid in many aspects of the game. That is quite enough.

if a player has a problem solver profile and want to have a solution right now for any challenge then the fighter is not a good option.
But we should not invalidate the possibility to play the mundane guy in DnD.

 

[Vaalingrade]

So... sucking and failing is an archetype. Okay.

For books. For shows. Not for an interactive medium where someone has to embody the helpless babe in the woods that needs the big, strong loving arms of a wizard to carry them through.

 

[Stalker0]

So one thing about 5e that may be hurting the martials is.... there is no longer any "prestige progression".

In 1e/2e, fighters could become "paladins" if they had high enough stats, with various divine powers. In 3e we had "prestige classes" that could add in all sorts of mythical abilities.

In 4e we had "paragon paths" and "epic destinies" that did the same thing.


So you could argue this is an area that is lacking in 5e. I think the fighter is very appealing at low levels, but at some point a fighter might want to "go mythic". Older editions had more ways to do this. In 5e you have to multiclass, which can get you part of the way but its not quite the same as something designed to fit on top of your existing class.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I will be honest and not have a lot of connan examples...
John Mclean shot down a helicopter with a car, survived being shot, blown up and still ran around perfectly fine, and often pulled tricks that no D&D fighter could.
Catwoman is my girl... read Hush she can survive a fight with mind controlled superman read the beginning of bat inc and she can jump from a building use a whip to catch a ledge and swing like spiderman.


what ability's is there to jump use a whip to swing let the whip go, swing it again to catch another ledge and keep swinging?
What ability's is there to climb a sheer surface?

lets do more out of combat... what power lets you charm someone that wont let you in into letting you in with only a few seconds?

I mean…the basic cycle of play, but yeah sure we can work out some better guidance for that and put more of it in the player’s hands.

But I hope we can do so without needing a “use a whip to swing action”, specifically. Probably worth looking at moves from pbta games, IMO. They’re more broad than 4e powers, but also quite clear and easy to use on the player end.

 

[Gammadoodler]

You are missing the point.

The mundane guy is a fantasy Archetype. A character with only human capacity, with no magical, psionic, mutation, or surnatural power.
In front of some challenge he can simply do nothing without external help.
In front of a wall of force like in the OP the mundane guy can do nothing.
He need help, and that need for help is a key motor for many fantasy. It create motivation, interaction, satisfaction when the needed help is acquire or give. Making the mundane guy crush the wall of force with his bare hands like a bag of hit points, make disappear this key motor of fantasy.

Hopefully DnD offer classes that are quite effective into the identity of the mundane guy. Some Rogue and fighter build are completely non magical but solid in many aspects of the game. That is quite enough.

if a player has a problem solver profile and want to have a solution right now for any challenge then the fighter is not a good option.
But we should not invalidate the possibility to play the mundane guy in DnD.

It is a great archetype..for the NPCs who hire D&D adventuring parties to solve their problems for them.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So one thing about 5e that may be hurting the martials is.... there is no longer any "prestige progression".

In 1e/2e, fighters could become "paladins" if they had high enough stats, with various divine powers. In 3e we had "prestige classes" that could add in all sorts of mythical abilities.

In 4e we had "paragon paths" and "epic destinies" that did the same thing.


So you could argue this is an area that is lacking in 5e. I think the fighter is very appealing at low levels, but at some point a fighter might want to "go mythic". Older editions had more ways to do this. In 5e you have to multiclass, which can get you part of the way but its not quite the same as something designed to fit on top of your existing class.

Yeah I think you’re right, and subclass doesn’t cut it. In my SRD project I’ve put “Final Destiny” as every classes level 20 feature, but maybe that should live outside the class, and come online sooner. Fighters could have points where they become epic, that dovetail with the epic destiny standin.

 

[CreamCloud0]

the 'mundane fighter' in fantasy imo is "i don't have magic, i don't have supernatural blood, i don't have a divine blade granted by the gods or a medalion of power, i'm just very, very good at beating people up and i've beaten all of the other guys who did have that stuff, because that's how good i am, and i ain't ever needed nothing but grit and elbow grease to do that"