D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Remathilis]

Do you need the rules to dictate the fluff behind the powers listed in the book or are you happy to let the players and DM create the story that leads to those powers?

Why do I need to pick a deity for my cleric? Why do I need to pick a patron for my warlock.? Why do I need to explain how my sorcerer casts spells innately? Why do I need to explain how a paladin smites, a bard inspires, or a druid wildshapes? Again, why even call classes "warlock" "ranger" or "monk", just make them a list of rules and let the player decide if the spellcasting class on page 112 is a wizard, warlock, sorcerer, occultist, witch, fairy godmother, or advanced mathematician?

 

[Minigiant]

Except those categories aren't listed anywhere in DnD in any capacity? So you are basically creating categories then filling those categories with the things you designed to fit them.

Again, you are stating "human means this" but I'm pointing out that either half-vampire minotaurs are human, or "human" in DnD doesn't look like a normal earthling.

They are listed.

For Strength, it's size catergory. Every size up form Medium is double strength. Wth giants being the largest beings with humaniod proportions.
For Toughness its HD.
For Speed, its speed.

So the question is can your warforged, human, or elf lift like a humaniod, an ogre, or a giant.

"But my PC can get the same strength as a true giant with epic boons and magic items"

Yes,but they still have to roll a check to throw a 1,000 lbs rock. A cloud giant does not.
Your elf still needs to be dragon orgin to have an effectively higher HD.

The question is whether a fighter should be able to lift 1000 lbs effortless and just throw the Wall of Force back in the wizard's face without a check?

 

[Hussar]

I keep drawing the line at "overtly supernatural". Flight. Mountain throwing. Killing an enemy through Intimidation. Running faster than a speeding bullet, being more powerful than a locomotive, and leaping tall buildings in a single bound. That stuff needs supernatural explanations. And I just need something. Heroic Bloodline. Specially brewed potions, unique magical training to mimic monster abilities. SOMETHING.

Don't keep leaving me with "I want to fly without using magic. No, I won't explain it."

It seems a pretty arbitrary bar though. Flying without magic is pretty common in things like Wuxia. There's no explanation for it. They just can. Now, okay, throwing a mountain might be a bit much. But, instead of "killing" an enemy through intimidation, how about simply making them run away (Fear effect)? Then again, Monks get a death attack without any magical explanation. And can literally turn invisible. Or is "ki" enough handwavium?

 

[Hussar]

Why do I need to pick a deity for my cleric? Why do I need to pick a patron for my warlock.? Why do I need to explain how my sorcerer casts spells innately? Why do I need to explain how a paladin smites, a bard inspires, or a druid wildshapes? Again, why even call classes "warlock" "ranger" or "monk", just make them a list of rules and let the player decide if the spellcasting class on page 112 is a wizard, warlock, sorcerer, occultist, witch, fairy godmother, or advanced mathematician?

You don't need a deity for a cleric. Nor a paladin for that matter. What explanation is there for a druid's wildshape? And, considering there are a shopping list of reasons why your sorcerer casts spells, up to and including, "just because", I'm thinking that the bar is kinda low.

 

[Yaarel]

For default superhuman Martial flavor, perhaps Fate is a versatile premise. The threads of the fabric of fate shift around the Fighter to enhance ones effort.

Fate can relate to ones own soul and personal sense of purpose and destiny.

In a scifi setting, Fate can relate to the fabric of spacetime and blurry timelines.

Also in a scifi setting, Fate can be technological enhancements including sentient programming.

Fate might be a nature-versus-nurture relating to Ancestry or DNA.

In an Arcane setting, Fate is magical enhancements.

In a Divine setting, Fate is blessing of the Divine will, sometimes with literal Celestial assistance.

In a Primal setting, Fate is the "primordial law", a sense of synchronicitous chains of events.

And so on.

Instead of this default, a DM might for the sake of a distinctive setting prefer a different explanation unrelated to Fate.

 

[Yaarel]

It seems a pretty arbitrary bar though. Flying without magic is pretty common in things like Wuxia. There's no explanation for it. They just can. Now, okay, throwing a mountain might be a bit much. But, instead of "killing" an enemy through intimidation, how about simply making them run away (Fear effect)? Then again, Monks get a death attack without any magical explanation. And can literally turn invisible. Or is "ki" enough handwavium?

The explanation in Wuxia is taken for granted as the qi. Similarly in Norse, with comparable hamr. This is the bodily aura of lifeforce and its extensive influence.

In D&D this "innate" magic is explicitly magical. Like psionics, Humans have it too.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Especially at Master tier and higher, humans can be explicitly superhuman.

Sounds good. Hope it says that somewhere. Otherwise you'll keep having these arguments.

 

[Yaarel]

Sounds good. Hope it says that somewhere. Otherwise you'll keep having these arguments.

I need an exclamation mark emoji.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No, no one is saying that. That was a sidebar that @Remathilis started. No one is claimign that all humans shoudl be able to do stuff earth humans can't. What is being said is that very high level fighters should be able to do things that humans can.

So, if you need an in-universe explanation for things, what is the in-universe explanation for high level rogue abilities, which are clearly superhuman and doing things no human can do. No human can dodge fireballs. It's flat out impossible for any human to dodge a fireball. Cannot be done. Yet, a rogue (and to be fair, a monk) can. What's the "in-universe" explanation that is explicitly stated in the Player's Handbook? Or any other book for that matter?

And if it's not explicitly stated, and you're okay with that, why the double standard for fighters?

Well, if I had my way any explicitly supernatural ability would have an explanation, regardless of class. WotC has the double standard, not me.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Do you need the rules to dictate the fluff behind the powers listed in the book or are you happy to let the players and DM create the story that leads to those powers?

If the book says that where the explanations come from, then yeah, that's cool. It's not my preference, but I can live with it. What I don't want are no explanations at all.