D&D (2024) 1st level monk. Why?

[Chaosmancer]

Last I checked... Monks still only need 300 XP to reach 2nd level. So if you as a Monk player can't even make it through a single session because you don't have enough "unique" stuff to do before reaching 2nd level... maybe you need to stop playing Monks that often if you grow bored of them that quickly.

So no class should have a unique identity from level 1, because the goal is to get out of level 1 as fast as possible?

No, that doesn't make sense. So why go on the attack about being bored and not even being able to make it through a single session? the point was simply to show that all that power budget that goes into unarmored defense and martial arts... other classes get through proficiency in weapons and armor, and then they get more abilities. The monk is being punished at level 1 for being a monk, because they feel like the option to not wear armor and not use weapons but be as good as the other level 1 classes using weapons and armor is something powerful.

 

[mellored]

I agree, but you can't use any weapon masteries that way, even though using that ability is something that should be standard for that monk.

And if you are using a Light Crossbow and have 40+ ft of movement... why would you ever be within 15 ft to use those abilities?

40' movement +15' feet reach + slow 10".

Easy enough to can walk forward, attack, and still get away in many cases.

But that's getting off topic

 

[Chaosmancer]

In my opinion, not really. That's why they emphasize evasion, because they're not particularly hardy or tough like the fighter or barbarian. A monk nevers plans on taking hits, so they wouldn't train themselves to be any better than other classes that don't plan on being hit either.

I disagree. A martial artist that doesn't expect to get hit is a hack who doesn't understand what it means to get into a fight. Rangers and Fighters don't plan on getting hit either. Getting hit is a dumb plan. But they know it is going to happen anyways.

 

[Chaosmancer]

40' movement +15' feet reach + slow 10".

Easy enough to can walk forward, attack, and still get away in many cases.

But that's getting off topic

40' movement + 80' range + slow 10' is even easier to get away.

Which is my point, if you can attack from anywhere within 100 ft, and you have poor AC and low hp, you are incentivized to never get within that 15' reach, because then you are attacking from within 45 ft of you opponent, which is half of your actual potential range.

Except, as a monk, you would feel like you wasted your time with the class if you never used a single monk ability. Which all want you to be in melee range.

 

[mellored]

For example, all "warrior" and "half-warrior" classes get a buff to damage at level 11. Except monks.

Monks can flurry of blows twice as often at level 11 than level 5.

It's not a big jump like the other classes, but a steady increase.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Because Martial Arts is the exact same as two-weapon fighting. So I showed that the fighter can achieve the exact same set-up as the monk. Then I demonstrated that that is a choice for the fighter, while the monk has no choice. Two-Weapon fighting is their only option.

But you are only playing one character at once.

Yhat reason was because it is the only way to get a d8 melee weapon as a monk.

So?

I wouldn't say it fixes the monk survivability problem, but it does assist in lessening it. But you seem to forget a few things.

1) Monks get Extra attack too, so it won't be good for a 5+ monk either

Not true. When a monk hits with their sap weapon on their first attack they switch to unarmed strikes.

2) Since the damage die doesn't increase with weapons, by level 5 the monk choosing to use a weapon mastery is dealing less damage. And this problem only grows as the monk levels.

Which is why you only give up the damage on the one attack. Out of three or four. Rather than two out of two.

 

[Asisreo]

I disagree. A martial artist that doesn't expect to get hit is a hack who doesn't understand what it means to get into a fight. Rangers and Fighters don't plan on getting hit either. Getting hit is a dumb plan. But they know it is going to happen anyways.

Typically, the role of damage sponge is to be hit and take damage, having enough hitpoints that doing so won't result in them going down before their routine heal.

Fighters can be very effective damage sponges. Rangers as well depending on their build.

Sure, monks know they will get hit eventually, but so does literally every other d8HD classes. Its not like they're a d6HD class.

 

[Stalker0]

Sure, monks know they will get hit eventually, but so does literally every other d8HD classes.

However, the main difference between rogues and monks is, rogues can soak damage every round, whereas monks have to use Discipline to get defensive advantages. So they have to decide ahead of time to do that, whereas the rogue can just react whenever they actually get hit.

One of the subtler issues with the monk is how much healing they soak up. Barbarians take half damage, rogue's can take half damage, fighters can heal themselves a good amount each short rest, paladin and rangers have spells, etc. Unless you take specific monk subclasses, you take a lot of hits AND you take a lot of damage.

Playing a monk is almost a tax on your party's cleric.

 

[Asisreo]

However, the main difference between rogues and monks is, rogues can soak damage every round, whereas monks have to use Discipline to get defensive advantages. So they have to decide ahead of time to do that, whereas the rogue can just react whenever they actually get hit.

One of the subtler issues with the monk is how much healing they soak up. Barbarians take half damage, rogue's can take half damage, fighters can heal themselves a good amount each short rest, paladin and rangers have spells, etc. Unless you take specific monk subclasses, you take a lot of hits AND you take a lot of damage.

Playing a monk is almost a tax on your party's cleric.

Well, that's why I advocate for monks getting something defensive that isn't just an HP boost.

Though, let's be fair, a monk and rogue will have pretty similar defenses at level 1.

When things ween off at around level 3, the rogues and monk both have free defensive options, but with different conditions.

Deflect missile is an always-on defensive option. People ignore it or see it as not very relevant since they think that nobody will bother shooting the monk, but that makes it even more powerful than it already is.

 

[Stalker0]

As far as I can tell this is the most damage you can output at 1st level with the monk, assuming no feats.

A monk takes the Handaxe (Vex) and a Dagger (Nick).

On their attack they do 1d6+3 with the handaxe in one hand, and then immediately get to use the dagger as part of TWF for 1d4 (which you will often have advantage on due to Vex). They now make an unarmed strike for 1d6 + 3.

So in total the monk gets to do 15.5 damage with an advantage to hit on one of their attacks.