D&D (2024) How is Flex still a thing?

[Pauln6]

For masters, naturally two handed weapons also have a mastery of their own.

So bump all mastered weapons up by a die? Or give them two base options one of which in increased damage and you need to choose each round?

 

[Reef]

Flex is boring.

And it takes away from what makes a versatile weapon cool:
Being able to use it in 2 hands normally, but also in one hand, if you are using your other hand to grab.

So I would like to have a better option.

Since we already have an option for shove (trip) and shove (push) I would suggest:

Grab: if you hit with a versatile weapon, you can initialize a grab for free. Done.

Other people have pointed this out, but I think you and others are missing the point. Sometimes simple (ie. boring) is a strength all on it's own. Mechanically, it's not as strong as some others. But there is a huge advantage to having an always-on ability you don't have to think about.

Two campaigns ago, we had a rogue in our group. You have no idea how long it took him to remember to use his bonus action hide-dash-disengage. He's playing a paladin in our current game, and he only smites if we remind him he can. Any kind of mastery ability (other than something like Flex) would be useless to him.

Most of us (especially here) are far more experienced at this game. But there definitely is a space for the casual player who doesn't care about mechanics. I'm sure we've all seen them...the players who are only there to hang out with their friends, or because their boyfriend/girlfriend are playing. And since those players are probably more likely than not to be martials, having a basic plus that works with a basic sword and board build is perfect for them.

Heck, I've got 40 years under my belt, and love cool combat mechanics as much as the next grognard. But there are times even I might not want to have to deal with an extra roll for every attack. Sometimes the thought that "Hey, I can get the benefit of using this two-handed AND still use a shield? All the time? Bonus!" is a good thing.

 

[Horwath]

A one die bump is not enough? Are you suggesting that versatile weapons should do more damage than two handed weapons but be usable one handed? This is at will first level and can be acquired via a feat. You will need to work harder to convince me that this a good idea.

rapier: d8, finesse, STR or DEX, Vex mastery
longsword: d10, versatile(d12), only STR, Flex mastery
Greatsword: 2d8, 2Handed, Heavy, only STR, Graze mastery

that should be the balance point as 2Handed weapons do not get 1+1/2 STR mod to damage. And rapier should do less damage than longsword as it uses two possible abilities for attack/damage.

 

[Pauln6]

rapier: d8, finesse, STR or DEX, Vex mastery
longsword: d10, versatile(d12), only STR, Flex mastery
Greatsword: 2d8, 2Handed, Heavy, only STR, Graze mastery

that should be the balance point as 2Handed weapons do not get 1+1/2 STR mod to damage. And rapier should do less damage than longsword as it uses two possible abilities for attack/damage.

I understand the rapier dilemma. I'm unconvinced that ramming the dice up for Strength only weapons is the answer. I think it's doubtful they will be looking to do this with cleave on the table

 

[Horwath]

I understand the rapier dilemma. I'm unconvinced that ramming the dice up for Strength only weapons is the answer. I think it's doubtful they will be looking to do this with cleave on the table

finesse must come with damage die decrease cost,
light must come with damage die decrease cost,
reach must come with damage die decrease cost,
thrown(that has decent range, 40/120 or similar) must come with damage die decrease cost,
Versatile is rubbish and should cost nothing, and be default for all 1Handed non-light, non-finesse weapons.

 

[Pauln6]

finesse must come with damage die decrease cost,
light must come with damage die decrease cost,
reach must come with damage die decrease cost,
thrown(that has decent range, 40/120 or similar) must come with damage die decrease cost,
Versatile is rubbish and should cost nothing, and be default for all 1Handed non-light, non-finesse weapons.

Yeah those are arguable. They seem like baseline weapon adjustments though. I've not seen any evidence suggesting that they are into that beyond tweaking Lance, trident, and net. Possibly you are casting your net too wide?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

finesse must come with damage die decrease cost,
light must come with damage die decrease cost,
reach must come with damage die decrease cost,
thrown(that has decent range, 40/120 or similar) must come with damage die decrease cost,
Versatile is rubbish and should cost nothing, and be default for all 1Handed non-light, non-finesse weapons.

That's not a rational argument, nor possible to balance. It also makes an absolute nonsense of real historical weapons. Try to do better.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You leave out all the players who forget how to roll initiative between sessions. Then there are the people who want to twitch-game, acting instantly because they find tactical minutia boring, and want to get straight to dice rolling.

Those people should take Flex every time so it can be baked into their character sheet.

Because otherwise no, they WON'T do anything else even if they CAN, because anything else is NOT fun for them.

And you should also design all casters so that they only have three spells. Because otherwise players who will forget how spells work can never learn them. Right?

 

[Chaosmancer]

I agree with notion that flex is the thing you do when nothing else is on the table....but I disagree that innately makes it a bad choice. It just means that the other masteries excel in their niche....which they should. The real question is "how broad are those niches?"

In an extreme example, if I have 2 things. I can use one of them 10% of the time, and when I can use it I always do. I mean that's great, but if I'm using my other thing 90% of the time its still pretty good.


If I'm a fighter I might choose two other weapon masteries, but then for my third I might choose flex for when I don't want to mess with finesse and just want damage. It isn't going to be the first choice in most scenarios, but if my first choice doesn't work in a lot of scenarios, well then flex is still solidly useful.

I'm not saying that flex has absolutely no place as a generalist option. But if you want to know why people say it is the worst option... it is because it is your third pick. It is because it is never going to be most people's FIRST pick.

It needs to be better designed, not to not be a generalist option, but to give something that tempts it into being a good first choice.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Flex is boring.

And it takes away from what makes a versatile weapon cool:
Being able to use it in 2 hands normally, but also in one hand, if you are using your other hand to grab.

So I would like to have a better option.

Since we already have an option for shove (trip) and shove (push) I would suggest:

Grab: if you hit with a versatile weapon, you can initialize a grab for free. Done.

Huh.... I like that. I like that quite a bit.