D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[nevin]

Snarf literally wrote that it's not a rest. That it's not an affirmative action. He asserted that it was a difference of KIND, not merely DEGREE.

Don't gaslight me.

If you want to have a discussion about how big a difference needing 5 minutes to rest makes vs needing an hour that's fine! That's a meaningful difference at a lot of tables, though it will vary from table to table depending on what kind of pace the DM sets.


As opposed to what the text actually says? That they're actually the adventurer resting and taking a break?

It can be argued however anyone wants too but adding a "short rest" and a "long rest" is a video game mechanic. It's become such an issue because it does jack up a lot of game master's intended game 'feeling" or mechanics because players expect to be able to "light the campfire" and recover even if they are camped in Mordor at the base of the Ring of Doom and suffer no consequences as they "recover".

It has been an will be argued in many threads whether it's a good change or a bad change but to argue that its not a bid difference, or that the game isn't balanced around it is silly. Now having said that, the DM sets the encounter pace and can prevent short rests or long rests, but with younger players you get into the arguments we had in 2e and 3e with splat books. WOTC said I could>>>>>>>>> That's a huge freaking fight and often blows up tables. The designers should never have implemented it the way they did and should have offered it as an alternative option for those tables that wanted it. For the murder Hobo dungeon delving crowd or for new DM's who can't balance waves of encounters on the fly I suspect it's a welcome mechanic. But encounters as presented by WOTC are definitely balanced around a 'rested" party.

 

[Mannahnin]

Yes. And folks have told you that the time difference is a big deal.

Snarf literally wrote that it's not a rest. That it's not an affirmative action. He asserted that it was a difference of KIND, not merely DEGREE.

Don't gaslight me.

If you want to have a discussion about how big a difference needing 5 minutes to rest makes vs needing an hour that's fine! That's a meaningful difference at a lot of tables, though it will vary from table to table depending on what kind of pace the DM sets.

I don’t know if you noticed but Snarf and I are different people? I mean I’m no where near as talented.

I was having a friendly disagreement with Snarf. Your first quote seems to refer to this disagreement. When you wrote "folks have told you", did you actually mean yourself? Because I never equated or mistook the two of you.

You're two of my very favorite people on this forum. I don't think I'm even capable of mistaking you for anyone else.

 

[Voadam]

I think the 5e default hour long short rest is an impediment to verisimilitude and to people actually using short rests in game.

It is hard to imagine people in a dungeon (say the fellowship in Moria) stopping and taking an hour long siesta before continuing on, much less the assumed baseline of twice an active adventuring day.

4e's view that it is the heroes catching their breath during an action movie cut scene after a fight scene is over makes more sense to visualize happening both in character and for players actually taking short rests.

As a 5e DM I use the DMG rest variant for short rests to be a breather (the DMG says 5 minutes but I just abstract it to a break), but keep long rests 8 hours.

Players still rarely take short rests in my games though.

 

[darjr]

I was having a friendly disagreement with Snarf. Your first quote seems to refer to this disagreement. When you wrote "folks have told you", did you actually mean yourself? Because I never equated or mistook the two of you.

You're two of my very favorite people on this forum. I don't think I'm even capable of mistaking you for anyone else.

That last sentence is both cool and sad. Cause I read Snarfs posts with an envy I won’t describe here.

For what it’s worth I do respect your opinion and am trying to understand.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

As a 5e DM I use the DMG rest variant for short rests to be a breather (the DMG says 5 minutes but I just abstract it to a break), but keep long rests 8 hours.

Players still rarely take short rests in my games though.

Really? Do you have many players with monks or warlocks? Because that's a massive change for those two classes in particular, if the short rests become encounter-based.

Personally, when I change it, I go the other way. Short rests to a day, long rests to a week. Makes it ... interesting.

 

[darjr]

Someone revivified this thread and I think it’s fascinating and the sales numbers speculated fit, sorta ?

https://www.enworld.org/threads/d-d-5e-nearing-800-000-copies-sold.579618/

 

[Mannahnin]

Literally the only difference between a long rest and a short rest is the duration, so they are the same and serve the same purpose, right?

Literally the only difference between a raw egg, a three-minute egg, and a hard-boiled egg is the duration of cooking time, so people eat them all interchangeably, right?

This is so bizarre. There is such a massive design difference at play here that I literally don't know how to keep explaining this, other than to reiterate the following points-

1. The "E" in AEDU has a meaning.

2. Differences in duration ... matter.

3. If a five-minute rest was the same as a one-hour rest, then I am quite sure that it would be uncontroversial for you to post that short rests in 5e can be five minutes with no real changes to the game, and characters can have unlimited short rests. I am sure that Monks and Warlocks, at a minimum, will finally be happy!

4. And all of this ignores everything else about the pacing of 4e. Encounters in 4e are separated by ... short rests. The DMGin 4e itself defines encounters as being typically divided by short rests (and encounters end when the monsters die or flee). It provides further information on what to do if your players can't or won't take short rests between ENCOUNTERS. There's even further pacing information in the DMG2. This is about narrative pacing.

But sure. They share a name.

Snarf literally wrote that it's not a rest. That it's not an affirmative action. He asserted that it was a difference of KIND, not merely DEGREE.

Don't gaslight me.

If you want to have a discussion about how big a difference needing 5 minutes to rest makes vs needing an hour that's fine! That's a meaningful difference at a lot of tables, though it will vary from table to table depending on what kind of pace the DM sets.

I really like and admire you most of the time, but I have to admit to being pretty frustrated right now, as you obviously are too.

I think your words now convey something materially different from what you wrote before. Maybe your intent was always the same and maybe I'm an illiterate moron, but I'm pretty sure it's not the latter.

I absolutely agree that there is a meaningful difference between it taking five minutes to rest and reset your abilities and an hour to rest and reset your abilities. As has been discussed ad nauseum for many years, it takes more work and narrative hoop-jumping for the DM to allow a full hour of downtime vs five minutes. Which is why, as darjr mentioned, many DMs have experimented with 5 minute short rests in 5E; to allow closer to action movie pacing. To let PCs reasonably get a break and a breather in a dungeon, say, when it seems to lack verisimilitude for them to be able to get an hour unmolested.

This does not mean that the 4E rules don't require an affirmative action to rest, or that 4E divorced the mechanic of ability refresh and healing from the verisimilitudinous in-world action of resting, as you originally claimed.

 

[deganawida]

Personally, when I change it, I go the other way. Short rests to a day, long rests to a week. Makes it ... interesting.

That’s a great optional rule in the DMG, IMO. Makes people be more tactical and avoid combat when they can. Also makes the big boss encounters much more cinematic.

 

[Malmuria]

Somewhat tangential, but this video goes into some of the numbers for 5e

 

[Voadam]

Really? Do you have many players with monks or warlocks? Because that's a massive change for those two classes in particular, if the short rests become encounter-based.

Hexblade warlock in my current game of 5 pcs, and I gave some per short rest options for the bard in that game as well (for bardic inspiration, can't remember if he took it off the top of my head).

Personally, when I change it, I go the other way. Short rests to a day, long rests to a week. Makes it ... interesting.

I consciously go for a more 4e action movie vibe in my 5e games. Army of Darkness feel is my goal.