D&D (2024) Fighter (Playtest 7)

[Cadence]

...you're playing a different game than 5th edition Dungeons & Dragons.

Offense may not always be the optimal choice in every situation, but the this game is heavily geared towards offense.

That one cleric in the back of the party who can turn the rest of the party into whack-a-mole moles has seemed pretty useful to me as a player and DM. Is that just a rare thing where our groups are odd?

 

[Cadence]

If the Fighter class splits into two classes

• Knight (heavy infantry, heavy armor, heavy weapons)
• Skirmisher (light infantry, mobility, finesse)

then the Brawler, Monk, Ranger, and Psi Warrior are Skirmisher subclasses, and the Paladin, Eldritch Knight, Samurai, and Cavalier are Knight subclasses.

I really like that. Is there a better name than Skirmisher? (Duelist feels better but not good...).

 

[Sacrosanct]

...you're playing a different game than 5th edition Dungeons & Dragons.

Offense may not always be the optimal choice in every situation, but the this game is heavily geared towards offense.

To the best of my recollection, 5e is not designed to have full resources after every combat. I seem to recall 6-8 encounters per day (and many of us have more than that depending on what's going on in the game--PCs can't just take rests whenever they want). So I keep to my position: sometimes, defense is much better because you'll need those resources going forward.

Pretty sure I'm still playing 5e.

 

[see]

So... to make a subclass work, you need to rely on DM goodwill even more? When you could just pick a subclass that doesn't rely on outside assistance to do its job?

Whether a character gets an appropriate magic item for combat is equally dependent on the DM whether the item in question is a "magic weapon" or an item "that enhance{s} Unarmed Strikes and Improvised Weapons".

Whether a subclass needs "outside assistance to do its job" is equally true whether it needs a magic weapon for that assistance or it needs an item "that enhance{s} Unarmed Strikes and Improvised Weapons".

Adding features to Brawlers to keep up with magic weapons is fully equivalent to adding features to Battle Masters on the excuse that they need to keep up with the coming "magic items that enhance Unarmed Strikes and Improvised Weapons".

 

[mamba]

I just don't like the brawler archetype, to me that is no hero (in the D&D heroic fantasy sense), it is not even an adventurer. That is the dim-witted, drunk, abusive uncle that would prefer to sit in the bar all day and the party cannot shake, because he needs them for the beer money.

There must be a more deserving fourth subclass for Fighter

 

[Cadence]

I just don't like the brawler archetype, to me that is no hero (in the D&D heroic fantasy sense), it is not even an adventurer.

How does the brawler differ from a non-ki monk who uses found items in much the way I thought a lot of those in kobudo came from found items (granted not table legs or beer mugs)?

 

[Clint_L]

5e Monks are just designed backwards. And no, I'm not talking about older ideas, I'm talking about how other games focused on martial artists uses martial artist.

Have you played a modern fighting game? While you do get to shoot off energy balls as projectiles off the bat, the good moves are locked away until you earn them in the match by performing smaller moves in order to gain momentum. Translated into 5e that means a monk should start every fight with 0 focus, and then gain focus by landing attacks, in order to unleash a "Finishing Move" some time around turn two or three. Throw in a "Spend an Action to gain (Monk-Level-Dependant) Focus points" ability for consistency and that's how the class's core should work. Then you can tweak their defensive prowess up a notch because skirmishing is hit-or-miss when it comes to encounters and the new monk should be good to go.

In theory, I agree with you, but in practice, D&D is nothing like a fighting video game. In effect, those games last for many super short "rounds", so a fighter can quickly build and spend resources, over and over. How do you make that work in a game where most battles are only a few rounds long, and the first round is often of utmost importance?

I love the idea of adding a mechanism by which monks can essentially earn extra energy as they fight, but I think it is imperative, given D&D's design, that all classes enter combat able to do fun things right away. As a taster, what about adding a baseline ability where monks earn an extra ki point or two every time they critical? That would actually have very little impact on gameplay, but it would be a fun little nod towards those sorts of fighting games.

Conceptually, a play style designed around builders and finishers would require a ground-up revamp of the monk, and some 5e compatible systems have done this, but that's just not on the table for OneD&D, for better or worse.

Getting back to the Brawler, I am uncomfortable with how much this subclass treads on monk territory already, given how much trouble WotC is having balancing that class. I feel like they should figure out unarmed fighting for the unarmed fighting class before adding it to other classes.

 

[mamba]

How does the brawler differ from a non-ki monk who uses found items in much the way I thought a lot of those in kobudo came from found items (granted not table legs or beer mugs)?

I am no fan of the Monk either, I'd make that a Fighter subclass, putting an end to the Brawler. That being said, a monk to me implies discipline, concentration, focus, and in that way they are nothing like the drunk barfighter with delusions of grandeur.

 

[Parmandur]

I just don't like the brawler archetype, to me that is no hero (in the D&D heroic fantasy sense), it is not even an adventurer. That is the dim-witted, drunk, abusive uncle that would prefer to sit in the bar all day and the party cannot shake, because he needs them for the beer money.

There must be a more deserving fourth subclass for Fighter

I mean, it's the Pro Wrestler.

 

[Cadence]

I am no fan of the Monk either, I'd make that a Fighter subclass, putting an end to the Brawler. That being said, a monk to me implies discipline, concentration, focus, and in that way they are nothing like the drunk barfighter with delusions of grandeur.

Pathfinder 1e's openness to a plethora of archetypes and hybrid classes seemed to let some of these happen easier. Monk of the Empty Hand [Monk], Unarmed Fighter [Fighter], Brutal Pugilist [Barbarian], and Brawler [MonkxFighter].