doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
It’s very easy to have the ability to be effective unarmed or armed in the base class, and also have the focus of the class be spiritual mysticism in a warrior tradition.
D&D (2024) Fighter (Playtest 7)
- Thread starter Vael
- Start date
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I’m not sure that is actually a problem. If it doesn’t pass the gut check in playtesting, it won’t suddenly pass the gut check after it’s been published, and nobody who didn’t already crunch the numbers is suddenly going to. An option that’s off-putting at a casual read is likely to be unpopular even if it’s mathematically fine. Why waste dev time and page count on options that are going to be unpopular?
Sorcerers Apprentice
Hero
...you're playing a different game than 5th edition Dungeons & Dragons.
Offense may not always be the optimal choice in every situation, but the this game is heavily geared towards offense.
Exactly.
The Monk is focused on unarmed combat not spiritual mysticism so the Brawler Fighter isn't allowed to enter the iconic archetype fantasy of a Brawler correctly due to niche protection.
If the fighter and Monk were both able to be effective unarmed combatants, for example via a Fighting style, then they could branch off into their respective archetypes better.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
The fighter has an unarmed fighting style. The Brawler can take that. What are they missing that you’d put in a subclass?
Remathilis
Legend
Because people's guts are often wrong. The misread things, don't consider other elements of the game, don't do the math to determine if something is OP/UP, and listen to choruses on social media telling them what to think. Stephen Colbert used to have a whole skit about using his gut and not his head when making decisions and people took it unironically. Gut reactions are good when you're considering something that might be dangerous it's a very bad way to compare or analyze info.
Sorcerers Apprentice
Hero
Using a Squire is the classic solution
To me the Brawler is still primarily still a weapon user. They just use kicks and handle strikes in.
Like hammer them down with topple then get a free "kick em when they're down". Or toss a tankard in the thug's face then quickly slash with the longsword. Stab with pencil then draw your weapon to shoot.
Or if anything using the grapple to pull them in for the OHKO heartstab.
The brawler archetype in media typically uses the Unarmed Strikes and improvised weapons to set up kill shots or to not waste the first action and get a blow it.
Fighting for more than 1-2 turns with an improvised weapon or fists was never it outside of modern action when gunplay is the primary attack.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Right, but even if they’re wrong about an option, the option is still going to be unpopular because of it. Better to spend time and effort developing options that are both good and popular than ones that are only one or the other.
fluffybunbunkittens
Hero
That reminds me, I was really impressed by how the 5e-using Beowulf : Age of Heroes used such followers. I'll just copy-paste from RPGnet...Using a Squire is the classic solution
This relatively short chapter details a rather vital aspect of Beowulf’s campaign rules: the loyal allies, hired help, and unlikely team-ups forming a “secondary party” for the otherwise lone Hero. Followers are a special kind of NPC with their own rules: they add +0 to all d20 rolls (although they can gain advantage/disadvantage), they don’t have AC or Hit Points and instead of suffering damage they suffer death saving throws as appropriate to their gift/burden/context-specific environmental feature, and in combat they roll initiative as a group in what is known as the Follower Turn.
In combat and other round-by-round tense situations the Hero can Activate a Follower during the Follower Turn as well as on their own turn as a reaction, which triggers the use of a Gift (and in some cases a Burden first). In a few special cases certain abilities can cause multiple Followers to activate during the same turn. Additionally, some Gifts, Burdens, and other circumstances can cause a Follower to be Spent, meaning that they cannot be Activated again until a long rest is taken or if a special ability or item on the part of the Hero “revives” them. This represents the Follower succumbing to injury, exhaustion, returning to the ship or meadhall, or simply having their big narrative moment and thus fades into the background. At the end of each adventure, Followers have the chance to be improved, and the player may make a number of choices up to the Hero’s proficiency bonus:* give one Follower a new temporary Gift, transform a temporary gift into a permanent one, or make a Burden temporary. Temporary Gifts and Burdens will be removed from play after completion of the next adventure unless made permanent, and the player cannot choose a temporary Gift to become Permanent as part of the same “level up” phase.
Followers otherwise don’t have any other Skills/Proficiencies/etc beyond these rules besides some suggested GM Fiat of granting advantage to the Hero for certain situations. The Hero can have a maximum number of Followers equal to twice their proficiency bonus plus their Charisma modifier. Recruiting above this limit for longer than is reasonable can impose the Malcontent Burden on them all, which causes them to refuse to act on a Natural 1 when activated. Nonhuman Followers can be recruited in rare circumstances, most especially Noble Animals who are otherwise natural beasts possessed of a keen intellect. Simple Warriors are ‘basic’ follower types who can automatically be recruited at any center of civilization and start play with four appropriately martial Gifts. The two remaining Follower types are the broader Potential Followers who can be recruited during an adventure and likelier to have unusual Gifts and Burdens, and Assistants who temporarily join the Hero out of circumstance but may become permanent Followers depending on certain criteria during the course of the adventure.
Followers don’t really take damage in combat or are directly targeted by monsters supposedly, as the text notes that they only ever roll death saving throws as the result of their Gifts and Burdens. They can die normally as the result of failed death saving throws, but the player may voluntarily declare a Follower to be Slain rather than killed normally in a dramatically-appropriate ultimate sacrifice, granting bonus Experience representative of the rest of the party reflecting upon their service and experiencing character development as a result. Of course, a Hero who has Followers die under their watch has consequences, such as families demanding wergild and other Followers gaining the Untrusting Burden if too many of their comrades die serving the Hero over the course of play (number equal to the Hero’s level + proficiency bonus).
Follower Burdens and Gifts are short, mostly one-sentence entries which convey role-playing and/or mechanics descriptions. There are 23 Burdens and 66 Gifts, which is a great amount for making Followers feel diverse and distinct. Some Gifts (particularly the RP-centric ones) are extra starting Gifts and don’t count towards their total number, while others can only be selected as an initial choice and cannot be gained later. A few represent advanced training and must be gained after going on adventures with the Hero, gained only be gained during specific encounters, or are initially possessed by Potential Followers and Assistants of remarkable skill.
For Burdens, about half (11) of them impose disadvantage on a common type of check (Awkward on Charisma checks, Deaf on checks requiring hearing, etc), while some are more reflective of loss of morale and/or negative personality types. Death-Marked is a bit GM Fiat, indicating that someone out there wants the Follower dead and is willing to act on this hatred. In another case, Mute means the Follower cannot (or refuses to) speak. The Envious Burden (which can be gotten if a Follower is paid much less than everyone else) requires a generous payment in shillings at the end of a voyage/adventure or a DC 20 Persuasion check or else they leave the party, while Untrusting forces the Follower to succeed on a DC 10 Wisdom save in order to be activated in dangerous situations. There’s one oddly-placed Burden called Eager where they provide the Hero advantage on recruitment checks (Persuasion checks to recruit new Followers) which sounds more like a Gift. However tis exact text is repeated as a Burden for a sample Follower in the free standalone Hermit’s Sanctuary adventure, so I’m unsure what to make of it. As a recruitment check is the Hero rolling vs a static DC and not a contested roll, this is all the more confusing.
There’s a lot more Gifts which have more mechanical bite to them. There’s a healthy assortment that grant either the Hero or the Follower advantage on some type of roll. But some of the more interesting ones include Bearded Axe (grant the Hero advantage on all attacks rolls for a turn and the target of their attacks cannot benefit from a shield), Engage (every Follower with this Gift is activated to occupy up to 2 opponents per Follower, preventing them from attacking the Hero for up to 3 turns if a sufficient distance away, after which point said Followers must start rolling death saves), Healer (Hero regains half of their Hit Dice), Weapon-Bearer (every Follower with this Gift is activated, dealing 1d6 damage on a hit; Noble Animals deal only 1d4 but have advantage on the rolls), Learned (Old Ways follower is literate in Ogham** and can interpret various clues about the ancient world), Mounted (roll weapon damage dice twice and keep best result against unmounted enemies), Prophetic (Hero rerolls a failed saving throw), Rescue the Hero (every Follower with this gift activates and makes a death saving throw, rescuing the Hero from certain death and allowing them to take a long rest), Scout (make a Stealth check to explore a nearby area, reporting their findings to the Hero on a success), and Shieldwall (every Follower with this Gift protects the hero, allowing the Hero to spend Hit Die to heal if there’s at least 4 shield-bearers including the Hero and can Engage with enemies for up to 1 more round without needing to make death saves).
In combat and other round-by-round tense situations the Hero can Activate a Follower during the Follower Turn as well as on their own turn as a reaction, which triggers the use of a Gift (and in some cases a Burden first). In a few special cases certain abilities can cause multiple Followers to activate during the same turn. Additionally, some Gifts, Burdens, and other circumstances can cause a Follower to be Spent, meaning that they cannot be Activated again until a long rest is taken or if a special ability or item on the part of the Hero “revives” them. This represents the Follower succumbing to injury, exhaustion, returning to the ship or meadhall, or simply having their big narrative moment and thus fades into the background. At the end of each adventure, Followers have the chance to be improved, and the player may make a number of choices up to the Hero’s proficiency bonus:* give one Follower a new temporary Gift, transform a temporary gift into a permanent one, or make a Burden temporary. Temporary Gifts and Burdens will be removed from play after completion of the next adventure unless made permanent, and the player cannot choose a temporary Gift to become Permanent as part of the same “level up” phase.
Followers otherwise don’t have any other Skills/Proficiencies/etc beyond these rules besides some suggested GM Fiat of granting advantage to the Hero for certain situations. The Hero can have a maximum number of Followers equal to twice their proficiency bonus plus their Charisma modifier. Recruiting above this limit for longer than is reasonable can impose the Malcontent Burden on them all, which causes them to refuse to act on a Natural 1 when activated. Nonhuman Followers can be recruited in rare circumstances, most especially Noble Animals who are otherwise natural beasts possessed of a keen intellect. Simple Warriors are ‘basic’ follower types who can automatically be recruited at any center of civilization and start play with four appropriately martial Gifts. The two remaining Follower types are the broader Potential Followers who can be recruited during an adventure and likelier to have unusual Gifts and Burdens, and Assistants who temporarily join the Hero out of circumstance but may become permanent Followers depending on certain criteria during the course of the adventure.
Followers don’t really take damage in combat or are directly targeted by monsters supposedly, as the text notes that they only ever roll death saving throws as the result of their Gifts and Burdens. They can die normally as the result of failed death saving throws, but the player may voluntarily declare a Follower to be Slain rather than killed normally in a dramatically-appropriate ultimate sacrifice, granting bonus Experience representative of the rest of the party reflecting upon their service and experiencing character development as a result. Of course, a Hero who has Followers die under their watch has consequences, such as families demanding wergild and other Followers gaining the Untrusting Burden if too many of their comrades die serving the Hero over the course of play (number equal to the Hero’s level + proficiency bonus).
Follower Burdens and Gifts are short, mostly one-sentence entries which convey role-playing and/or mechanics descriptions. There are 23 Burdens and 66 Gifts, which is a great amount for making Followers feel diverse and distinct. Some Gifts (particularly the RP-centric ones) are extra starting Gifts and don’t count towards their total number, while others can only be selected as an initial choice and cannot be gained later. A few represent advanced training and must be gained after going on adventures with the Hero, gained only be gained during specific encounters, or are initially possessed by Potential Followers and Assistants of remarkable skill.
For Burdens, about half (11) of them impose disadvantage on a common type of check (Awkward on Charisma checks, Deaf on checks requiring hearing, etc), while some are more reflective of loss of morale and/or negative personality types. Death-Marked is a bit GM Fiat, indicating that someone out there wants the Follower dead and is willing to act on this hatred. In another case, Mute means the Follower cannot (or refuses to) speak. The Envious Burden (which can be gotten if a Follower is paid much less than everyone else) requires a generous payment in shillings at the end of a voyage/adventure or a DC 20 Persuasion check or else they leave the party, while Untrusting forces the Follower to succeed on a DC 10 Wisdom save in order to be activated in dangerous situations. There’s one oddly-placed Burden called Eager where they provide the Hero advantage on recruitment checks (Persuasion checks to recruit new Followers) which sounds more like a Gift. However tis exact text is repeated as a Burden for a sample Follower in the free standalone Hermit’s Sanctuary adventure, so I’m unsure what to make of it. As a recruitment check is the Hero rolling vs a static DC and not a contested roll, this is all the more confusing.
There’s a lot more Gifts which have more mechanical bite to them. There’s a healthy assortment that grant either the Hero or the Follower advantage on some type of roll. But some of the more interesting ones include Bearded Axe (grant the Hero advantage on all attacks rolls for a turn and the target of their attacks cannot benefit from a shield), Engage (every Follower with this Gift is activated to occupy up to 2 opponents per Follower, preventing them from attacking the Hero for up to 3 turns if a sufficient distance away, after which point said Followers must start rolling death saves), Healer (Hero regains half of their Hit Dice), Weapon-Bearer (every Follower with this Gift is activated, dealing 1d6 damage on a hit; Noble Animals deal only 1d4 but have advantage on the rolls), Learned (Old Ways follower is literate in Ogham** and can interpret various clues about the ancient world), Mounted (roll weapon damage dice twice and keep best result against unmounted enemies), Prophetic (Hero rerolls a failed saving throw), Rescue the Hero (every Follower with this gift activates and makes a death saving throw, rescuing the Hero from certain death and allowing them to take a long rest), Scout (make a Stealth check to explore a nearby area, reporting their findings to the Hero on a success), and Shieldwall (every Follower with this Gift protects the hero, allowing the Hero to spend Hit Die to heal if there’s at least 4 shield-bearers including the Hero and can Engage with enemies for up to 1 more round without needing to make death saves).
