WotC Hasbro gains big time from D&D, Magic, Monopoly, and Baldur's Gate 3

[darjr]

Actually I think I have a screen cap of Amazon page for PF2 core showing it out of stock… or “unavailable”

 

[Ruin Explorer]

My real question is - when is the statute of limitations up? When will every single freakin' thread about the business side of things be ultimately hijacked by a stupid idea that was never fully implemented?

So this is actually an interesting question.

There is a pretty clear answer, historically, if you look at similarly incredible screw-ups. One thing to realize is, even the with somewhat unfortunate sneering attitudes here about plebs who can't even spell OGL, this seriously damaged WotC's reputation among a far larger base of people than just "D&D players" (a reputation already at least mildly dented by MtG stuff). A significant proportion of English-speaking videogamers, who probably outnumber English-speaking TT RPG players 100:1 have heard of it, for example.

Unity's recent screw up attracted a lot of comparisons directly to the OGL, for example. And it'll be decades before it really fades from being a go-to example of business managing absolutely to say it was going to do the dumbest possible thing (again, it's immaterial that you may personally not see it as so dumb - that's the common opinion, and it's not going to change).

But your question is how long, and the answer, from history, is two-fold:

1) For as long as the "current management" of WotC/Hasbro exist, this will be brought up, and to be fair, that's reasonable, because they are the people who did it, they were the people the buck stops with, and people who can let their company do something that dumb and drawn-out once, can do it twice. As long the crew of ex-MS vets like Chris Cocks, Dan Rawson, Cynthia Williams and so on remain in charge of WotC and Hasbro, this will continue to hang around. (I'm not suggesting any of these named people are dim or incompetent, but they are capable of supporting other decision-makers who made incredibly bad decisions, even if they didn't make them themselves, rather than countermanding those decisions.)

That likely means at least a decade. I would suggest coming to terms with this now, and not becoming embittered about it. These people made a very bad decision, drew that decision out for nearly two full months of bad (and indeed worsening) word-of-mouth and then press, when they could have solved it nigh-instantly.

Actions have consequences, and this will quite rightly hang on their necks for as long as they or other ex-Microsoft people continue to run Hasbro/WotC.

My guess is really either:

A) WotC continues to do well with D&D for at least a decade or more, and these people all stay at WotC and Hasbro and indeed more MS alumni join them, and thus this will continue to be brought up.

or

B) WotC/Hasbro has kind of shakeup, and decides to sell off either D&D, or all of WotC. In those cases, this might very suddenly become irrelevant and stop being worth bringing up.

2) This will exist as a go-to example, as mentioned earlier, even WotC sold D&D tomorrow, for decades. Multiple decades.

As an aside, the drawn-out nature of this is the big problem. If WotC had quickly pivoted away from the bad ideas, rather than drawing them out for weeks on weeks, we wouldn't be still talking about this. It'd be seen as some sort of "aberration" or temporary insanity. But they didn't. It took so long for the bad press to build up. They had so long to fix it. But the perception - and I think it's a correct perception - will now forever be that they only pivoted away because of the bad press impacting the decision-making of the company.

Of course another way it could become somewhat forgotten is WotC could do something even worse, but, uh, let's hope not.

 

[Oofta]

As they say, Sharing is caring.

And, well, you know me by now ....

Even when, I mean if of course, if you find out I'm a bard?

 

[Oofta]

So this is actually an interesting question.

There is a pretty clear answer, historically, if you look at similarly incredible screw-ups. One thing to realize is, even the with somewhat unfortunate sneering attitudes here about plebs who can't even spell OGL, this seriously damaged WotC's reputation among a far larger base of people than just "D&D players" (a reputation already at least mildly dented by MtG stuff). A significant proportion of English-speaking videogamers, who probably outnumber English-speaking TT RPG players 100:1 have heard of it, for example.

Unity's recent screw up attracted a lot of comparisons directly to the OGL, for example. And it'll be decades before it really fades from being a go-to example of business managing absolutely to say it was going to do the dumbest possible thing (again, it's immaterial that you may personally not see it as so dumb - that's the common opinion, and it's not going to change).

But your question is how long, and the answer, from history, is two-fold:

1) For as long as the "current management" of WotC/Hasbro exist, this will be brought up, and to be fair, that's reasonable, because they are the people who did it, and people who can do something that dumb and drawn-out once, can do it twice. As long the crew of ex-MS vets like Chris Cocks, Dan Rawson, Cynthia Williams and so on remain in charge of WotC and Hasbro, this will continue to hang around.

That means at least a decade. I would suggest coming to terms with this now, and not becoming embittered about it. These people made a very bad decision, drew that decision out for nearly two full months of bad (and indeed worsening) word-of-mouth and then press, when they could have solved it nigh-instantly.

Actions have consequences, and this will quite rightly hang on their necks for as long as they or other ex-Microsoft people continue to run Hasbro/WotC.

My guess is really either:

A) WotC continues to do well with D&D for at least a decade or more, and these people all stay at WotC and Hasbro and indeed more MS alumni join them, and thus this will continue to be brought up.

or

B) WotC/Hasbro has kind of shakeup, and decides to sell of either D&D, or all of WotC. In those cases, this might very suddenly become irrelevant and stop being worth bringing up.

2) This will exist as a go-to example, as mentioned earlier, even WotC sold D&D tomorrow, for decades. Multiple decades.

What can I say, I don't see the point in holding a grudge about something they thought about doing until they realized based on feedback how idiotic an idea was and cooler heads prevailed. Everybody makes mistakes, this was one that was never actually implemented.

In my opinion, it pales in comparison to the hostile work environment that was alleged at Paizo. Where is the outrage from are all the people that are flocking to PF? I'll support a company that thought about making a business decision I disagree with over what allegedly happened at Paizo.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

What can I say, I don't see the point in holding a grudge about something they thought about doing until they realized based on feedback how idiotic an idea was and cooler heads prevailed. Everybody makes mistakes, this was one that was never actually implemented.

It's not holding a grudge, it's being pretty rational, actually.

When a company is profoundly dysfunctional that an idea like this filters through to the surface, that's a sign of extremely bad management. Remember WotC themselves talked about it as something they were 100% definitely doing - in fact up until quite late in proceedings, they were using language to indicate "the lady is not for turning", even though the lady later did an impressive 900 degree spin and then ramped off the CCL!

You cannot and should not fully trust a company that does that.

This is what Unity are now facing. I'd argue they've screwed up much bigger, but it's been a much shorter time. What they've done though is create a situation where nobody can trust them not to do insane things. WotC didn't do something that bad, but it means that not trusting them particularly far is rational, not grudge-holding.

In my opinion, it pales in comparison to the hostile work environment that was alleged at Paizo. Where is the outrage from are all the people that are flocking to PF? I'll support a company that thought about making a business decision I disagree with over what allegedly happened at Paizo.

With respect, that sounds like the most direct kind of whataboutism. It's thus not a good argument, and you can't really complain about "grudges" as if they're bad, and them simple engage in whataboutism.

First off, it's simply inaccurate to say "thought about". The language used in WotC's press about the OGL 1.1 was not that they were "thinking about" it. It was they were doing it. They certainly allowed that some parts might be flexible, but they were very clear it was going to happen. Attempts at revising history to suggest it was merely "considered" as if it were some half-hearted unserious internal discussion are only going to cause people to talk about this more, to clear up that issue.

Second off, WotC has also had some "hostile work environment" issues, and outright misogyny issues (Mearls' behaviour re: the Zak S allegation - frankly none of Mearls' business! - was both unprofessional and fit misogynistic patterns, for example), which aren't really brought up any more. So even if we say that the work environment at Paizo was screwed, it doesn't seem like WotC's work environment was great either, so even a whataboutist context, that's maybe not a great angle.

Also with Paizo, it's unclear how many of the allegations were founded or not, especially as the vast majority came from a single individual. Every workplace has people who allege hostile behaviour, and in some cases it's deadly true, in others it can a difference in perceptions or even largely fictional. I've worked in environments myself and seen both gaslighting abusers getting away with stuff for far too long, and people with mental health issues or bizarre beliefs who caused gigantic problems for co-workers whilst claiming they were the victims. Indeed I know of first-hand a previously-successful charity that was basically destroyed by a single employee who just made racism allegations against literally anyone who the employee thought "crossed them" - whether it was by pointing out the expensing your commute is illegal and against the rules of the charity (it is under British law - it's a taxable benefit if you do that), or just by failing to agree with them sufficiently loudly at meetings. That person never got fired either - they just left when they'd caused so much carnage that charity was no longer able to operate or fundraise effectively. On the flipside I was aware of (and indeed reported to HR) an individual at a firm I worked at who harassed women, and who attempted to bully co-workers (less effectually than this person might have hoped), and generally was not a good person, but who got a big party and send-off from management when this person "moved away". It was muted as hell because by then everyone except management loathed the guy, and even with management you could tell it was all a front to try and avoid there being some kind of bad press.

 

[Scribe]

What can I say, I don't see the point in holding a grudge about something they thought about doing until they realized based on feedback how idiotic an idea was and cooler heads prevailed.

This is still your hill?

Kickstarter negotiated with Wizards, and other people had the contracts. Its not 'thought about' at that point. It happened.

Weird to die on a hill that isnt there, but whatever.

 

[Oofta]

It's not holding a grudge, it's being pretty rational, actually.

When a company is profoundly dysfunctional that an idea like this filters through to the surface, that's a sign of extremely bad management. Remember WotC themselves talked about it as something they were 100% definitely doing - in fact up until quite late in proceedings, they were using language to indicate "the lady is not for turning", even though the lady later did an impressive 900 degree spin and then ramped off the CCL!

You cannot and should not fully trust a company that does that.

This is what Unity are now facing. I'd argue they've screwed up much bigger, but it's been a much shorter time. What they've done though is create a situation where nobody can trust them not to do insane things. WotC didn't do something that bad, but it means that not trusting them particularly far is rational, not grudge-holding.

With respect, that sounds like the most direct kind of whataboutism. It's thus not a good argument, and you can't really complain about "grudges" as if they're bad, and them simple engage in whataboutism.

First off, it's simply inaccurate to say "thought about". The language used in WotC's press about the OGL 1.1 was not that they were "thinking about" it. It was they were doing it. They certainly allowed that some parts might be flexible, but they were very clear it was going to happen. Attempts at revising history to suggest it was merely "considered" as if it were some half-hearted unserious internal discussion are only going to cause people to talk about this more, to clear up that issue.

Second off, WotC has also had some "hostile work environment" issues, and outright misogyny issues (Mearls' behaviour re: the Zak S allegation - frankly none of Mearls' business! - was both unprofessional and fit misogynistic patterns, for example), which aren't really brought up any more. So even if we say that the work environment at Paizo was screwed, it doesn't seem like WotC's work environment was great either, so even a whataboutist context, that's maybe not a great angle.

Also with Paizo, it's unclear how many of the allegations were founded or not, especially as the vast majority came from a single individual. Every workplace has people who allege hostile behaviour, and in some cases it's deadly true, in others it can a difference in perceptions or even largely fictional. I've worked in environments myself and seen both gaslighting abusers getting away with stuff for far too long, and people with mental health issues or bizarre beliefs who caused gigantic problems for co-workers whilst claiming they were the victims. Indeed I know of first-hand a previously-successful charity that was basically destroyed by a single employee who just made racism allegations against literally anyone who the employee thought "crossed them" - whether it was by pointing out the expensing your commute is illegal and against the rules of the charity (it is under British law - it's a taxable benefit if you do that), or just by failing to agree with them sufficiently loudly at meetings. That person never got fired either - they just left when they'd caused so much carnage that charity was no longer able to operate or fundraise effectively. On the flipside I was aware of (and indeed reported to HR) an individual at a firm I worked at who harassed women, and who attempted to bully co-workers (less effectually than this person might have hoped), and generally was not a good person, but who got a big party and send-off from management when this person "moved away". It was muted as hell because by then everyone except management loathed the guy, and even with management you could tell it was all a front to try and avoid there being some kind of bad press.

The fact that someone in the company, probably in higher level management from the HASBRO side of things didn't understand the nature of the business does not make it a dysfunctional company. I've seen dysfunctional companies from the inside, this in no way qualifies. The policy was never implemented, therefore it was "thought about".

In any case ... have a good one. I'm done.

 

[Oofta]

This is still your hill?

Kickstarter negotiated with Wizards, and other people had the contracts. Its not 'thought about' at that point. It happened.

Weird to die on a hill that isnt there, but whatever.

Just as weird to hold a grudge because people like you rallied against it and won.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The policy was never implemented, therefore it was "thought about".

In any case ... have a good one. I'm done.

Fair enough re: done, I don't want to harass you about it or anything, but please allow me to point out that, whilst to you, the language "thought about" may be accurate for the reasons you describe, if you really want to see this discussed less, I would suggest avoiding that language, because it's not how a lot of people would understand that. And the internet (including me, I must admit) loves pedantry and specificity. So one of the best ways to start a massive discussion of something is to talk about it in a way that pedants won't like! Not a critique of you or your view, just a point re: practicality of achieving one's goals! I myself have modified terms before to avoid starting pointless discussions of things, even if I was slightly irked to do so!

 

[Scribe]

Just as weird to hold a grudge because people like you rallied against it and won.

Again, the people trying to push some revisionist 'it never happened' seem to be more vocal than the 'wizards is bad cuz OGL' we have plenty of other reasons to know that wizards is bad, the OGL event, which happened btw with measurable impact, is just one more bump in the road.