D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[TwoSix]

Does it, I would like an explanation for that... I notice there are a lot of MtG settings here, know too little about them but Theros is ancient Greece / Rome, don;t see why that should be a thing there, Strixhaven is a school for mages, that sounds even less like it belongs there.

I can maybe see Planescape, because it is full of weirdness by design

You mean weirder than the idea that all mortal belief generates magic electricity that flows into anthropomorphic sky batteries?

Dieties are kind of the norm, but any system based on the idea that mortal belief provides some sort of magic field is innately fantastical (and thus weird). Dieties aren't LESS weird than any other faith-magic system.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

In Eberron it is explicitly stated within the lore that the gods do not interact with mortals in the way they do in other settings. Religions are much more like in real life, since there's no way to actually communicate with or confirm the existence of gods. The Silver Flame is the closest example of a physical manifestation of divinity, but it is a literal a pyre of silver flame in a physical place that is worshiped because it marks the spot where a champion and a couatl bound a demon overlord. Eberron also has the Blood of Vol, which as was mentioned earlier, is based on the idea of the Divinity Within which allows one to draw upon the untapped power inherent within themselves and all things to create miracles. The gods don't walk the world in Eberron, and if they exist at all they are so far removed from the affairs of mortals that they may as well not exist.

 

[mamba]

You mean weirder than the idea that all mortal belief generates magic electricity that flows into anthropomorphic sky batteries?

yes, weirder than that.

Dieties are kind of the norm, but any system based on the idea that mortal belief provides some sort of magic field is innately fantastical (and thus weird). Dieties aren't LESS weird than any other faith-magic system.

I disagree, and at a minimum you still have to bridge two gaps here

1) one person believing in themselves is equivalent to many people believing in something bigger than themselves
2) why this only works for cleric-adjacent classes and not wizards, fighters, etc.

 

[mamba]

In Eberron it is explicitly stated within the lore that the gods do not interact with mortals in the way they do in other settings. Religions are much more like in real life, since there's no way to actually communicate with or confirm the existence of gods.

sure, but it does not give any (better) explanation, it just makes it the norm. I was looking for a better explanation

 

[Hawk Diesel]

2) why this only works for cleric-adjacent classes and not wizards, fighters, etc.

I would argue that it works for all classes. A wizard believing in themselves so hard that they can cast spells is completely doable. A fighter just having lots of self-confidence that allows him to fight like a beast without any training is also achievable. The mechanics are separate from the fantasy of how they can use their mechanical tools. Both of those concepts seem like a lot of fun, actually.

Fighter 1: Dude, that was amazing! Where'd you get your training? I've trained with giants and the elite Legionnaires of Westeros, and I can't even do what you just did!

Fighter 2: Oh yea, I read this book on confidence and bringing forth your true self. Changed my life. I've always wanted to be a warrior, and the book taught me that if I believe it, that makes it true. So yea. I finished that book yesterday. Great read, highly recommend.

Fighter 1 stares in stunned silence as Fighter 2 hoists his oversized sword over his shoulder and saunters away, whistling.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

sure, but it does not give any (better) explanation, it just makes it the norm. I was looking for a better explanation

Well, better is a highly subjective standard. What would you consider "better" or "acceptable"?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Does it, I would like an explanation for that... I notice there are a lot of MtG settings here, know too little about them but Theros is ancient Greece / Rome, don;t see why that should be a thing there, Strixhaven is a school for mages, that sounds even less like it belongs there.

I can maybe see Planescape, because it is full of weirdness by design

I think Eberron is pretty self evident if you know anything about how the setting handles deities and religions, but for a basic example the Blood of Vol in Eberron worship the divine spark inside themselves and/or the deity they believe they have the potential of becoming. Clerics, Paladins, and Aasimar are some of the main examples of Blood of Vol characters gaining power from their supposed divine nature. It clearly takes some inspiration from Buddhism.

In Theros, belief shapes the gods and created most (if not all) of the gods. It's implied that the personalities, portfolios, and stories of the gods evolves significantly depending on how they are worshipped. For example, the two gods of war are stated to be worshipped as identical twins, even when one of them is an Ares-style minotaur and the other is a more Athena-inspired centaur. Recently in the canon, a 16th god of madness and revelry (obviously a stand in for Dionysus) was created through mind controlling enough people and forcing them to worship him. The Leonins of the setting are antitheistic, but can still be clerics through worshipping an idea or other force.

Gods don't really exist in Ravnica, so Clerics normally gain their magic through devotion to one of the 10 factions, though there are a few exceptions. This is vaguely similar to how it works in Planescape.

Clerics in Strixhaven gain their magic through their devotion to one of the houses of Strixhaven.

 

[Bedrockgames]

What are you doing at the mirror?

.....casting a spell.

This captures why this doesn’t work for me. It feels like an odd version of the way faith in the Dresden files works (at least in the early portion of the series, don’t know if this was changed). But D&D settings don’t need that explanations. The gods are there to provide spells. And when I imagine characters believing in themselves enough to produce magical effects, my mind kept going to this

 

[mamba]

I would argue that it works for all classes.

I'd argue that should be the case too, if that is how it works for clerics. That is not how the classes are set up however. If this is just a matter of belief, then there are no separate classes, anyone can do anything, at least in theory, that would be much more of a skill buy system

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I'd argue that should be the case too, if that is how it works for clerics. That is not how the classes are set up however. If this is just a matter of belief, then there are no separate classes, anyone can do anything, at least in theory, that would be much more of a skill buy system

That's only true if you take the perspective that there are no limits. In this example, there's no limits on what belief can accomplish. But that doesn't mean that belief can allow a person to do anything. A fighter still functions as a fighter. A wizard still functions as a wizard. The fiction that grants them their powers can be quite broad, but without multiclassing, would not allow a mechanical fighter to cast spells without taking levels in Wizard or Eldritch Knight.