D&D General Wizard vs Fighter - the math

[Minigiant]

At a certain point you have to do a secret poll of the group (no need asking the people complaining they can't break the game of course). Is everyone okay with this? If so, then you have to decide if you want to continue DMing them. If it's just one or two players you simply have to learn to say "no". Not sure what else to say.

It's not a group problem.

It's a "TSR and WOTC always agree to the buffs of spellcaster fans everytime always" problem.

No matter how TSR or WOTC nerf casters at the start, they always buff them in some other way. And they continuously buff them as the edition rolls until the next edition or half edition rolls on to restart the process.

It is known in RPGs of all types, fans will always ask for buffs of their favorite class. The developer is supposed to say "no" sometimes. TSR and WOTC are/were clearly biased on their saying of "No."

 

[Minigiant]

I just wonder what this list of balance breaking spells would look like. Is it just things which break rest constraints? Is it the second level spells that replace a bunch of skills? Is it the fact they went away from memorizing to known?

If the problem is really there, it should be trivial to list and solve for.

It's not just the spells.

It's the slots. The memorization. The casting. The scrolls and items. The (lack of) counters and interruptions. Etc.

It's an "easy" fix. But it requires the community to agree to define and stick to tropes and the weaknesses of those tropes.

 

[Scribe]

It's not just the spells.

It's the slots. The memorization. The casting. The scrolls and items. The (lack of) counters and interruptions. Etc.

It's an "easy" fix. But it requires the community to agree to define and stick to tropes and the weaknesses of those tropes.

I'm not sure we need the community to agree. We just need one of the 5e's to do it.

 

[Oofta]

It's not a group problem.

It's a "TSR and WOTC always agree to the buffs of spellcaster fans everytime always" problem.

No matter how TSR or WOTC nerf casters at the start, they always buff them in some other way. And they continuously buff them as the edition rolls until the next edition or half edition rolls on to restart the process.

It is known in RPGs of all types, fans will always ask for buffs of their favorite class. The developer is supposed to say "no" sometimes. TSR and WOTC are/were clearly biased on their saying of "No."

We'll just never agree. I don't have the problems you have and never have in 5E. It was certainly an issue in 3E. If you don't like something as a DM I've always been able to come up with a solution that works for us. But with only vague assertions of "game breaking" and "the players complain" there's nothing to go on.

 

[Oofta]

I'm not sure we need the community to agree. We just need one of the 5e's to do it.

Since the "issue" seems to be "D&D", I don't think there is a solution.

 

[Scribe]

Since the "issue" seems to be "D&D", I don't think there is a solution.

I just dont believe that at all.

It could easily be corrected, and if one desired (less easily I'm sure, I am completely ignorant on this) published.

Simply define balance. Call out that which offends the balance, and fix it.

 

[Minigiant]

We'll just never agree. I don't have the problems you have and never have in 5E. It was certainly an issue in 3E. If you don't like something as a DM I've always been able to come up with a solution that works for us. But with only vague assertions of "game breaking" and "the players complain" there's nothing to go on.

We don't disagree.

You just happen to play as how the designers intended in their design that is tailored around giving into the demands of caster fans.

Its not that there aren't solutions. It's just the WOTC twisted 5e around into a way that allows for most of the wants of most caster fans of the years.

You just happen to prefer that style anyway. Nothing wrong with it. 5e works splendidly when run in that style

3e even works in the style it was designed for. Same with 4e.

The question is on popular that style is once the core of 5e players graduate pass being new

 

[Scribe]

The question is on popular that style is once the core of 5e players graduate pass being new

When is one not 'new' and where along the chart do 'most' fall in the last 10 years?

 

[Minigiant]

When is one not 'new' and where along the chart do 'most' fall in the last 10 years?

I would say one is no longer new when one is comfortable and knowledge enough to discuss the base game itself and analyze variance third party and supplementary products.

Or basically be able to prepare to run one side of DM/Player divide on their own without active help.

And D&D 5e is just about rolling to the point where the majority of its players are no longer new.

 

[Oofta]

We don't disagree.

You just happen to play as how the designers intended in their design that is tailored around giving into the demands of caster fans.

Its not that there aren't solutions. It's just the WOTC twisted 5e around into a way that allows for most of the wants of most caster fans of the years.

You just happen to prefer that style anyway. Nothing wrong with it. 5e works splendidly when run in that style

3e even works in the style it was designed for. Same with 4e.

The question is on popular that style is once the core of 5e players graduate pass being new

You don't get to tell me what I believe or why. I rarely play casters yet have no issues feeling like I contribute significantly to the game when I play. When I DM, my players don't see a problem. No one I've ever played with has raised it as an issue.

You have an issue with the way the game is structured. That's fine, no game can be for everyone.

But you're unwilling to discuss details of any sort, so there's nothing to discuss. What I disagree with is that it's a fundamental issue, that casters reign supreme, that there are not solutions if someone feels casters are too powerful. There are several options.

Making broad statements and assertions as fact simply doesn't carry much weight.