D&D General Wizard vs Fighter - the math

[Minigiant]

No they don't. At least not any better than the default rules do. Arguably worse because your adjusted rest schedule is compensates in the wrong direction.

It works fine.

The inn is right over there. It takes them less than an hour to get to a safe place to sleep.
It's not the Warriors where it takes 8 hours to travel from Central Park to Coney Island.
They get humped and walk home like normal people.
If you have an urban adventure, the inn, bastion, temple, hideout, watch house is right over there.

That's why 80% of D&D adventure writers do not write urban adventures. Because it is too easy to get back to the resting place and sleep for days.

There's always some rigamarole to get you out of town to travel for X days so you can't rest and inflate the encounter number.

 

[overgeeked]

ONE
Latent Mana/Magic Levels.

Locations have levels of life force that can be used to power abilities or adjust resting.

Very High LML areas use Mythic Legend resting and have access to Mythic powers
High LML areas use Epic Heroism resting
Moderate areas use Default resting
Low LML areas use Gritty Heroism resting
Dead Magic zones don't allow resting

Places like dungeons have lower LML than a church or place of healing. The orcs in a dungeon heal faster than you as they have their altar to their dark gods. You need to destroy the altars of your enemies or they will revive their dead.

TWO
Classes without spells gain the ability to burn HD to regain short features. 2 HD for an action surge. 1 HD for 2 Ki.
All casters get Arcane/Divine/Primal recovery.

THREE
My settings are a bit more technological than base D&D.
Renaissance Firearms are purchasable.
Modern Firearms are magic items
Exotic armors and weapons exist

That's...huh. Really interesting.

What's "Mythic Legend resting" and "Mythic powers"?

 

[Oofta]

It works fine.

The inn is right over there. It takes them less than an hour to get to a safe place to sleep.
It's not the Warriors where it takes 8 hours to travel from Central Park to Coney Island.
They get humped and walk home like normal people.
If you have an urban adventure, the inn, bastion, temple, hideout, watch house is right over there.

That's why 80% of D&D adventure writers do not write urban adventures. Because it is too easy to get back to the resting place and sleep for days.

There's always some rigamarole to get you out of town to travel for X days so you can't rest and inflate the encounter number.

That's not how it works in my games. Yes, you can go rest but you risk losing the trail, the robbery isn't stopped, the high poobah is assassinated, any number of things.

When it takes a week to get a long rest that ticking clock is ticking really, really slowly.

 

[Scott Christian]

Rest should follow the story, nothing more, nothing less.

If the setting implies it is going to be hard to rest, then it should be difficult. If it implies it should be easy, then it is easy. Of course, PC actions come into play. I mean, you can give a person a labyrinth of canyons and caves to hide in, but if they build a smoky bonfire, well...

 

[M_Natas]

Do you think that's good game design? Because I sure don't. To me your attempts to "fix" the game seem to make it way worse.

I think that is okay.
It is more "realistic" and if the DMs knows the effects on gameplay he can act accordingly.

Like, also, In Town is usually not where the strategic essource management part of D&D is played put, its where you prep for it.

I wouldn't do it with different Variants of Rest Rules. That's why my Gritty Gradual Realism rest rules allow to adjust Regeneration rate by resting conditions. You are at Town at a magical healing Spa? You heal faster than in a the wild while it is cold and rains and you forgot to bring a tent and sleeping bag.

That is two different set of playstyles and adventure campaigns.
Like I found it funny that they call the Gritty Realism in the DMG Gritty and than used a political city campaign as an example for when to use them

Like, first of all, that is not a Gritty campaign type in my book. Second of all that is the last campaign type I need harder resting rules, because those campaigns are usually not about character class ressource management, but political management. Gaining favors, trading favors.
Like, fighting is not supposed to be the hard part in those campaigns and they balance differently.

The fighter or rogue in a city campaign is more balanced against a wizard, because my wizard can't just blow up half the area with his fireballs (unless it is an evil campaign).

 

[FrogReaver]

Rest should follow the story, nothing more, nothing less.

As long as it’s realized that this aesthetic means the desired difficulty coupled with the rest system really ties the DMs hands in what direction he can take the story while maintaining the desired difficulty.

 

[Mort]

Rest should follow the story, nothing more, nothing less.

If the setting implies it is going to be hard to rest, then it should be difficult. If it implies it should be easy, then it is easy. Of course, PC actions come into play. I mean, you can give a person a labyrinth of canyons and caves to hide in, but if they build a smoky bonfire, well...

But shouldn't the story mostly emerge from play?

How often the party rests will GREATLY influence what kind of story ends up being told. And that depends on the players control of the pace of play.

Granted, in most modules and certainly most adventure paths - the "story" is already mapped out and the PCs are just treading through it. But even here, the ease by which they can do so is greatly reliant on what kind of rest opportunities there are and how otherwise the PCs are allowed to dictate the pace of play.

 

[Scott Christian]

As long as it’s realized that this aesthetic means the desired difficulty coupled with the rest system really ties the DMs hands in what direction he can take the story while maintaining the desired difficulty.

This might be true for a new DM. I would agree to that. They may feel like their hands are tied.

But shouldn't the story mostly emerge from play?

Of course. I don't believe my statement said otherwise.

How often the party rests will GREATLY influence what kind of story ends up being told. And that depends on the players control of the pace of play.

Yes, it will affect the story - absolutely. And if the DM, recognizing the group is at full health, beefs up the single encounter for the day (as long as it makes sense), then they can do that.

Granted, in most modules and certainly most adventure paths - the "story" is already mapped out and the PCs are just treading through it. But even here, the ease by which they can do so is greatly reliant on what kind of rest opportunities there are and how otherwise the PCs are allowed to dictate the pace of play.

Except the DM actually controls the encounters. The DM identifies more than one thing than what is in a book. If a group finds a clever way to rest inside the temple right before the big-bad fight, a DM could let them rest and have an easier fight than what was initially prepared. The DM, if they thought the players wouldn't like that, could boost-up the big-bad encounter. IF the DM thought they were going to run out of time, they could modify the encounter to a partial encounter.
I guess, I do not get it. It is not hard to make a difficult encounter for PC's of almost any level- full rest or not. But, in the end, the story should dictate how easy it is to rest - and that is determined by player choices and DM choices.

 

[Mort]

This might be true for a new DM. I would agree to that. They may feel like their hands are tied.

Of course. I don't believe my statement said otherwise.

Yes, it will affect the story - absolutely. And if the DM, recognizing the group is at full health, beefs up the single encounter for the day (as long as it makes sense), then they can do that.

Except the DM actually controls the encounters. The DM identifies more than one thing than what is in a book. If a group finds a clever way to rest inside the temple right before the big-bad fight, a DM could let them rest and have an easier fight than what was initially prepared. The DM, if they thought the players wouldn't like that, could boost-up the big-bad encounter. IF the DM thought they were going to run out of time, they could modify the encounter to a partial encounter.
I guess, I do not get it. It is not hard to make a difficult encounter for PC's of almost any level- full rest or not. But, in the end, the story should dictate how easy it is to rest - and that is determined by player choices and DM choices.

That's exactly my point.

Since D&D, like it or not, is quite "mother may I" the degree of difficulty rests on how much the DM allows the players to control the pace of play.

And to tie it back to the thread. How's much the players control the pace of play will also greatly affect the power balance between wizards and fighters. If the players control the pace of play such that they can rest before most/all hard+ encounters, wizards WILL dominate. If the DM does not allow this, but instead keeps the pace such that the players face encounters at or near the DMG encounter guidelines, things will likely equalize and the classes should be on much more equal footing.

 

[FrogReaver]

This might be true for a new DM. I would agree to that. They may feel like their hands are tied.

Why do you think it's not true for experienced DM's? Have they maybe just been lulled to sleep by accepting that approach for decades that they don't even realize how much it's actually tying their hands?