D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)

That game balance is a bad rather than a desirable trait for games is an extraordinary claim.

If you want to prove an extraordinary claim, you'll need strong evidence.

It is not an extraordinary claim and I don't have to prove anything any more than you do.


Fallacious appeals to popularity are not such evidence.

And neither are calling another's position "extraordinary". Yet you are willing to use that completely baseless argument to underpin and butress your position, while offering no actual evidence at all.

I mean, this was supposed to be a thread about problems with the fighter, and it's progressed to arguing whether balance is a thing. 🤷‍♂️
That is because your "problems" are based on this theory of balance.

But what do extremely high ability scores have to do with willfully building a bad character? They're not generally forced on players....

No bad decisions are forced on characters at all, in game things like curses may be forced on characters and then there are perhaps deals with Fiends happen with bad consequences but that is not part of character creation.

Absent those kinds of story and gameplay elements, RAW no one is forced to make any bad choices in building a character.

What extremely high abilities do though is mitigate willfully and purposefully building a bad character.
 

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The concept of game balance is not something made up out of whole cloth specifically for these discussions, like the Oberoni Fallacy, or CaW/CaS or Dissociated Mechanics.

It is a concept and many people believe it to be true, but there is no evidence it is true.

It is a hypothesis. It does not have sufficient evidence to even qualify as a theory, let alone a fact.
 

What extremely high abilities do though is mitigate willfully and purposefully building a bad character.
I'm not following where these "extemely high abilities" are coming from?


It is not an extraordinary claim
If you want to understand what people talk about when they say 'Game Balance" do some research. I've provided the definition I've come across that I've found useful, to save anyone reading the trouble, but feel free.
But, if you're just interested in playing the John Cleese part in the classic "Argument Clinic," well, I'm no Michael Palin, I'll leave you to it.
 

Okay, but that sounds more like aesthetics than principle.

You want some choices to be non-viable, like a wisdom focused, low str and dex champion fighter, but some other choices should all be viable. That preference is perfectly fine but your not ever goina be able to make a logical case for it.
What? Of course there's a logical case for it.

It's exactly the same as the logical case for "players who make unwise choices should experience failure more often than players which make effective choices," e.g. "players who blindly rush enemies without plans or preparation should have hurt or killed characters more often than characters that consistently stop and think about how to proceed before they engage."

That's the second part of the foundation of gameplay, or at least of skilled gameplay. There must be:
1. Multiple distinct paths to the desired outcome (or, equivalently, multiple distinct outcomes that are all desirable)--without this, you have a puzzle, not a game of skill;
2. Choices to be made which influence whether and how you succeed or fail--without this, you have a story or presentation, not a game of skill; and
3. The opportunity to learn from past choices in order to make better choices over time--without this, you have games of chance, where your choices matter but the primary determinant of success is outside your control, not a game of skill.

There could be further requirements, but anything meant to be a game of skill (such as chess) rather than a game of chance (such as roulette), a visual novel/interactive story (e.g. Doki Doki Literature Club), or puzzle (such as sudoku), must have at least the above three.

"Wis-focused, low-Str, low-Dex Champion Fighter" is an example of choices which can influence whether and how you succeed or fail. Quite demonstrably. It is a selected strategy, and anyone paying even a little bit of attention would be able to say "hmm, I don't think that's going to be very effective."

There is a world of difference between that and something like Bladesinger vs other Wizard subclasses. The only other Wizard subclasses that get bonus benefits (beyond DC/prepped spells) from Int are Abjurer (more Arcane Ward hit points which...isn't much), War Magic (+Int to Initiative, which is quite good and more maximum Power Surges, which isn't much), and Evocation (add +Int mod to one damage roll of any evocation spell you cast...which is pretty meh at the level you get it.) Bladesingers get huge bonuses from it, far and away more than anyone else (+Int to AC and Concentration checks at level 1, +Int to melee weapon attacks at level 14) under Bladesong. With the way most groups play, you can have Bladesong active in most combats each day by level 5.

Nothing is perfect, I don't expect it to be. 🤷‍♂️
Neither do I. I expect things to perform within a reasonable range of effectiveness. This is something that can be measured. That's literally why the designers do math passes, why fans complain about "overpowered" subclasses (like Twilight Cleric) or spells (like silvery barbs) or weak subclasses (like Champion Fighter or Beast Master Ranger) or...I actually can't think of any spells people actively complain about for being under powered all that much. Probably because there are so many good spells to choose from. I guess maybe some of the Ranger-exclusive "this is actually a class feature pretending to be a spell" things?

We disagree. Repeatedly stating that it is a positive quality, necessary at all, or even measurable, changes nothing.

Meanwhile nobody is saying balance is a bad thing either.
Plenty of people have done exactly that. We even had a thread about it. Quite recently! Balance is vilified by a vocal minority of the 5e community. It has been difficult to get people to even admit that it has any value at all. Case in point, you just denied that it has any value at all.

You claim it is, but there is no evidence at all that this is true. NONE!
There is plenty of evidence that it is true. Shouting "none" does not make it none.

A well-balanced game achieves the goals for which it was designed. As the designers of 5e have explicitly told us, that did not happen. At the absolute least, they balanced the game around an expectation that was simply false. Folks simply do not take short rests nearly often enough, on average, and they definitely don't fight enough combats per day. This is one of several reasons why we are getting 5.5e next year.

Balance is a positive quality. That's why so many designers seek it. Even 5e's! Even 3e's, for God's sake. The former missed the mark to a noticeable but not horrific degree. Sadly...the latter did miss to a horrific degree. That's also why we have PF2e now. Because the designers finally threw up their hands and admitted that they couldn't keep working with such a broken game.
 

What? Of course there's a logical case for it.
For what specifically? - because the rest of your post certainly sounds like it is only at best tangentially related to mine
"Wis-focused, low-Str, low-Dex Champion Fighter" is an example of choices which can influence whether and how you succeed or fail. Quite demonstrably. It is a selected strategy, and anyone paying even a little bit of attention would be able to say "hmm, I don't think that's going to be very effective."
Right, but the poster my response was to, explicitly stated they wanted all choices to be viable. Then they backtracked and said all choices but ASI’s and etc.

The logic I spoke of fails because it’s not being applied the same to ASIs as to the other choices - which is why I asked what logic you are talking about. Or said more plainly - there is no logical path to get to ‘all choices except ASIs should be viable.’ - even though that’s a perfectly valid preference - it’s just not derived from principles being logically applied, but from aesthetics.
 

If you want to understand what people talk about when they say 'Game Balance" do some research.

I don't need to do research. I understand exactly what they and you believe. But those are beliefs, not facts.

I've provided the definition I've come across that I've found useful, to save anyone reading the trouble, but feel free.

Ok and it is an opinion, not a fact.

But, if you're just interested in playing the John Cleese part in the classic "Argument Clinic," well, I'm no Michael Palin, I'll leave you to it.
I am not and my position has been consistent across many threads and on multiple posts.

I get that you believe balance is a positive thing that improves the game and I can even discuss the imbalance of some classes at some specific levels with the premise that we are accepting this as being true for purposes of that discussion. But that does not make it true.
 

There is plenty of evidence that it is true. Shouting "none" does not make it none.

Please provide this data that shows this to be true then. Not opinions but actual evidence.

A well-balanced game achieves the goals for which it was designed.

As a point of fact, 5E is not well balanced at all levels and it has far exceeded the original goals for which it was designed.

That doesn't prove anything of course, but neither does your statement above with no supporting evidence.

Balance is a positive quality.

You and others keep saying this, but that doesn't make it true.

That's why so many designers seek it. Even 5e's! Even 3e's, for God's sake.

Just because game designers claim to seek it doesn't make it true either. FWIW I am not sure you can say they seek balance in 5E especially given the changes both implemented and recommended to certain classes, subclasses and races.

If they are actually seeking balance then why was the Twilight Cleric published? Why was the Gloomstalker published and worse not nerfed in ONE? Why were objectively more powerful races published after the PHB and why was one of the most powerful PHB races, Mountain Dwarf, made more powerful still with proficiency trading? Why are Wizards continually made more powerful at higher levels with every new publication?

Are we to believe that the game designers don't realize these imbalances exist? While I am at it, wouldn't the alleged existence of the "Wizard mafia" itself imply that they are interested in not balancing classes?
 
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IMO, when anyone starts talking like this the discussion is already over.

If you disagree please cite some evidence not just opinion to prove it ;)

I am fine with people saying I am wrong.

I am not the one saying this is a fact. Even though I have my opinion, and I am confident in it, I am fine saying we don't know how balance affects the game and I am fine with someone saying I am wrong.
 
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