Loki Season 2 Discussion - Spoilers

[Clint_L]

Loved this. This is good SF. Actually being forced to deal with stuff instead of just punching bad guys.

Reminds me of an excellent short story called Run, Bakri Says. Escape Pod 339: “Run,” Bakri Says

Loki got his throne. They said it all the way along he was destined for the throne.

I’m happy.

Great. If this is good SF, please explain how it enlightened the audience about anything. Like, does a single person understand why Loki had to do what he did, what result it had, and why it had that result?

I honestly want to know, because I have no clue.

The story began with the premise that there would be a big war between the Kangs of multiple timelines. And also finished with that situation, as far as I can tell. So on top of it not making sense on any level, it advanced the plot nowhere. Which should be the subtitle for all D+ shows.

 

[Tonguez]

So Loki is now the heart of Yggdrasil, sitting on the Throne of Time, watching All Stories?
nice arc from his start as an nabbed frost giant baby.

be interesting to see what that means for the rest of the MCU and if the likes of the Watcher and the Sorcerer Supreme know about him

 

[Paul Farquhar]

But Doctor Who

I've got that on BBC iPlayer.

 

[DeviousQuail]

Great. If this is good SF, please explain how it enlightened the audience about anything. Like, does a single person understand why Loki had to do what he did, what result it had, and why it had that result?

I honestly want to know, because I have no clue.

The story began with the premise that there would be a big war between the Kangs of multiple timelines. And also finished with that situation, as far as I can tell. So on top of it not making sense on any level, it advanced the plot nowhere. Which should be the subtitle for all D+ shows.

I'll take a stab at it.

He Who Remains won the multiversal war. He knows what it takes to do that and works to ensure that attempts at undoing his victory (branching timeliness with Kang variants) will fail. The whole Ouroborus/Mobius infinite loop thing. With this knowledge and power he kind of removes free will. Every step already paved, yadda yadda yadda.

In some respects he does this for good reason. He either knows or believes that any other path that leads to fighting the multiversal war again will result in the death of everything. Hard to say, but he probably has more insight into this than anyone.

Loki and Sylvie being good guys, or at least anti-heroes, like free will. They want freedom, but have to bear the burden of that freedom. Classic story. Anyway, skipping to the end they decide they'd rather have free will even if it means dying for it. That may or may not be Sylvie's fate down the line.

Loki goes through his character arc for 2 seasons and that journey leads him to a point where he's ready to bear the burden of breaking the loop set up by HWR. Instead of letting the loom explode, which leads to all the multiverses sans HWR's "sacred timeline" being destroyed, Loki breaks everything. Sacred timeline included. He then ascends more or less (time skipping under his own power unlike HWR who uses tech to do it) to real big G Godhood by grabbing a bunch of timelines and setting it up in a brand new way. The yggdrasil tree.

Now that HWR's loop is broken the multiversal war is able to start again. Team TVA has the gist of the problem and start working toward winning that war. Loki is also in a position where he might be able to help tip the balance but also had to focus on keeping this new reality in place. Very lonely in that throne.

Long story short, we thought we were leading up to a multiversal war, but in truth it was just going to all be reset and repeated as HWR wanted. Now the war is on and we don't know what will happen. From an audience perspective it doesn't change that we were going to get this war. But I'm more excited for it now than I was so I'll take it.

 

[Clint_L]

I'll take a stab at it.

He Who Remains won the multiversal war. He knows what it takes to do that and works to ensure that attempts at undoing his victory (branching timeliness with Kang variants) will fail. The whole Ouroborus/Mobius infinite loop thing. With this knowledge and power he kind of removes free will. Every step already paved, yadda yadda yadda.

So, there are so many inherent contradictions in this entire concept that any kind of story logic is already out the window. Not mention how it contradicts huge plot points throughout the MCU thus far. Okay, timey whimey stuff, but the writers may as well have just thrown their hands in the air and said "it's all just magic and don't think about it - nothing will change anyway."

In some respects he does this for good reason. He either knows or believes that any other path that leads to fighting the multiversal war again will result in the death of everything. Hard to say, but he probably has more insight into this than anyone.

Or he just claims that because it is useful to him. Which seems like the far more likely answer. Especially given that there are infinite branching timelines so it is impossible for him to have this knowledge. So why does Loki even listen to this guy, who clearly has a vested interest in the status quo that he has developed?

And how do you "prune a timeline" anyway? What does that even mean? It's just more magical hand waving. These are just silly words being said that don't make a lick of sense.

Loki and Sylvie being good guys, or at least anti-heroes, like free will. They want freedom, but have to bear the burden of that freedom. Classic story. Anyway, skipping to the end they decide they'd rather have free will even if it means dying for it. That may or may not be Sylvie's fate down the line.

I mean, I'm not sure why this was a big realization that Loki needed to come to, given that he is a literal god of mischief. One of the weirdest parts of this season was how he morphed into Steve Rogers.

Loki goes through his character arc for 2 seasons and that journey leads him to a point where he's ready to bear the burden of breaking the loop set up by HWR. Instead of letting the loom explode, which leads to all the multiverses sans HWR's "sacred timeline" being destroyed, Loki breaks everything. Sacred timeline included. He then ascends more or less (time skipping under his own power unlike HWR who uses tech to do it) to real big G Godhood by grabbing a bunch of timelines and setting it up in a brand new way. The yggdrasil tree.

How does the loom, which is a half-assed Victorian mechanical device, do anything like contain or explode all of infinite reality, etc. and so on? How are timelines something you can grab in your hand? Weren't we told that Loki was killing a bunch of timelines (which are apparently basically literal vines?). Was he murdering universes?

Now that HWR's loop is broken the multiversal war is able to start again. Team TVA has the gist of the problem and start working toward winning that war. Loki is also in a position where he might be able to help tip the balance but also had to focus on keeping this new reality in place. Very lonely in that throne.

So, is the suggestion that while the sacred timeline was a thing, all of the other timelines didn't exist, so that all of the MCU thus far actually didn't exist during that part of the show, but came back into existence when the timelines started branching and...right. Magic. Hand waving.

And how does Loki just get all these new powers? Oh, right, he can just say that he had enough time to get them. This is very convenient for writers, who never have to explain anything. "He had lots of time so therefore he can have whatever powers the plot demands."

Long story short, we thought we were leading up to a multiversal war, but in truth it was just going to all be reset and repeated as HWR wanted. Now the war is on and we don't know what will happen. From an audience perspective it doesn't change that we were going to get this war. But I'm more excited for it now than I was so I'll take it.

Yeah, we thought we were leading up to a multiversal war and, yup, we were leading up to a multiversal war. So none of that series meant anything. From an audience perspective there were no stakes - nobody cares about the fate of the multiverse because we already know it'll be fine, since it's the setting for these movies.

This is why the MCU needs to take some time off and come back when it is ready to focus on characters so that stories can actually have some stakes. Their mega-apocalyptic plots are meaningless - just a bunch of hand waving and CGI but nothing actually happens.

 

[Hussar]

I'll take a stab at it.

He Who Remains won the multiversal war. He knows what it takes to do that and works to ensure that attempts at undoing his victory (branching timeliness with Kang variants) will fail. The whole Ouroborus/Mobius infinite loop thing. With this knowledge and power he kind of removes free will. Every step already paved, yadda yadda yadda.

In some respects he does this for good reason. He either knows or believes that any other path that leads to fighting the multiversal war again will result in the death of everything. Hard to say, but he probably has more insight into this than anyone.

Loki and Sylvie being good guys, or at least anti-heroes, like free will. They want freedom, but have to bear the burden of that freedom. Classic story. Anyway, skipping to the end they decide they'd rather have free will even if it means dying for it. That may or may not be Sylvie's fate down the line.

Loki goes through his character arc for 2 seasons and that journey leads him to a point where he's ready to bear the burden of breaking the loop set up by HWR. Instead of letting the loom explode, which leads to all the multiverses sans HWR's "sacred timeline" being destroyed, Loki breaks everything. Sacred timeline included. He then ascends more or less (time skipping under his own power unlike HWR who uses tech to do it) to real big G Godhood by grabbing a bunch of timelines and setting it up in a brand new way. The yggdrasil tree.

Now that HWR's loop is broken the multiversal war is able to start again. Team TVA has the gist of the problem and start working toward winning that war. Loki is also in a position where he might be able to help tip the balance but also had to focus on keeping this new reality in place. Very lonely in that throne.

Long story short, we thought we were leading up to a multiversal war, but in truth it was just going to all be reset and repeated as HWR wanted. Now the war is on and we don't know what will happen. From an audience perspective it doesn't change that we were going to get this war. But I'm more excited for it now than I was so I'll take it.

Well said.

 

[Hussar]

So, there are so many inherent contradictions in this entire concept that any kind of story logic is already out the window. Not mention how it contradicts huge plot points throughout the MCU thus far. Okay, timey whimey stuff, but the writers may as well have just thrown their hands in the air and said "it's all just magic and don't think about it - nothing will change anyway."

[/QUOTE]

But it's a huge change. Instead of the loom destroying all time lines save the Kang one (sorry, forgot the proper noun), Loki has actually given free will to everyone.

Or he just claims that because it is useful to him. Which seems like the far more likely answer. Especially given that there are infinite branching timelines so it is impossible for him to have this knowledge. So why does Loki even listen to this guy, who clearly has a vested interest in the status quo that he has developed?

Well... because this guy is a time traveler who's lived a bajillion years? And Loki can see what's going on?

And how do you "prune a timeline" anyway? What does that even mean? It's just more magical hand waving. These are just silly words being said that don't make a lick of sense.

Umm, have you watched the show? They pruned all sorts of timelines to drop it back to the Sacred timeline. That was the whole point of the show. That whenever they prune the timeline by killing the person who caused the variant, they basically killed that entire timeline.

I mean, I'm not sure why this was a big realization that Loki needed to come to, given that he is a literal god of mischief. One of the weirdest parts of this season was how he morphed into Steve Rogers.

Did you not watch Season 1?

How does the loom, which is a half-assed Victorian mechanical device, do anything like contain or explode all of infinite reality, etc. and so on? How are timelines something you can grab in your hand? Weren't we told that Loki was killing a bunch of timelines (which are apparently basically literal vines?). Was he murdering universes?

Umm, again, tesseract?

So, is the suggestion that while the sacred timeline was a thing, all of the other timelines didn't exist, so that all of the MCU thus far actually didn't exist during that part of the show, but came back into existence when the timelines started branching and...right. Magic. Hand waving.

And how does Loki just get all these new powers? Oh, right, he can just say that he had enough time to get them. This is very convenient for writers, who never have to explain anything. "He had lots of time so therefore he can have whatever powers the plot demands."

Umm, again, did you miss the part where he's gone through thousands of iterations? Centuries of learning? Basic time travel stuff.

 

[Ryujin]

So Loki makes Yggdrasill. Can we see Loki again? Anywhere and anywhen.

 

[MarkB]

So, at the end of season 1 the status quo was that now there were infinitely branching timelines, and there were an indefinite amount of Kangs out there going to cause multiversal war.

Then in season 2 we have a new problem introduced, which is that those timelines are all going to collapse killing everyone who lives in them.

But that problem is never actually defined until the penultimate episode, and all we have to go on is that there is a thing called a Loom doing something to the branching timelines, which will cause some indeterminate issue if/when it breaks down.

And now in the final episode Loki develops new magical time powers and becomes god of all timelines, sitting in the centre of them keeping them all intact. But there are still a bunch of Kangs out there ready to cause interdimensional chaos if they get the chance.

Which basically leaves us right back at the status quo as of the end of season 1, except that Loki is now otherwise occupied.

So, in summary, a season of people running around doing largely pointless things with goals and stakes that are poorly defined, to achieve the same outcome we thought had been achieved already.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I watched the show last night, and I largely agree with @Clint_L and @MarkB ... but with a few caveats. I was asked by a friend this morning if the show was "good." And I responded ... eh, it's complicated.

I should start by saying that the acting was, of course, excellent. And the set designs and costumes (especially the retro TVA sets) are amazing. There were times I freeze-framed just so I could read the posters in the background.

But I think that a lot of the praise of the show was simply a function of the lowered expectations people had coming in. After all, in the last year, the only MCU show we've had has been Secret Invasion. Really. She-Hulk aired last August (!!!). And with all the dire news coming out of Marvel over the last year or so, I think people wanted a win. And Tom Hiddleston is charming!

Simply by virtue of not being Secret Invasion, and by having Loki (and Morbius, underplayed with alacrity by Owen Wilson), this show was always going to get a pass. But the last two episodes ... they were just treading water. The plot, such as it was, didn't actually amount to anything. Compare that with the first season, which was full of forward momentum and surprises. Here, other than a nice plug for Mickey Dees, I can't imagine thinking about it at all. A lot of signifiers, signifying nothing. And while some of the time travel escapades were fun (such as Loki being the one who "killed" Loki in order to save him), the rush of the finale reduced anything that could have been meaningful to a blip on the screen and deus ex machina. Compare and contrast the episode of Doctor Who (Heaven Sent) where you feel the weight (and wait) of using time travel / rebirth to accomplish a task that takes a long time to this, which is just reduced to assumptions or a title card that reads, "Centuries later." Did that change Loki? I mean, it had to, right? And yet, the character changed before that.

Eh. Look, I don't want to yuck anyone's yum. The show was fine, and certainly a massive step up from the last MCU show, and I like seeing that crew together again. But it was a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing. IMO.