D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Hussar]

And were that the only issue, it probably wouldn't have been a torch waving offense. But it wasn't. I refer back to a post I made in this thread about 90 pages ago:

For many of us who didn't like 4e and dropped it early, there are a number of issues that we found threw sand in the gears of the D&D we knew and preferred and, taken all together, aroused our ire at the edition. This bit that the current discussion is hyper-focusing on is merely one of them.

IOW presentation, not substance.

Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by upstream and downstream?

And no we’re not focusing on just one. Over and over it gets pointed out that every single one of those “sand in the gears” elements are in 5e. Every one of them.

Non magical healing and healing rates. Turning every character into a caster. Lack of mechanics that are not combat focused. Dissociated mechanics. Changed and rewritten monster lore. The list goes on and on.

But it’s okay because they don’t have 4e cooties on them.

 

[billd91]

IOW presentation, not substance.

Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by upstream and downstream?

And no we’re not focusing on just one. Over and over it gets pointed out that every single one of those “sand in the gears” elements are in 5e. Every one of them.

Non magical healing and healing rates. Turning every character into a caster. Lack of mechanics that are not combat focused. Dissociated mechanics. Changed and rewritten monster lore. The list goes on and on.

But it’s okay because they don’t have 4e cooties on them.

No matter how many times I tell you that’s not the case, you never listen. So you may just go screw yourself and welcome, after so many years, to my ignore list,

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

No matter how many times I tell you that’s not the case, you never listen. So you may just go screw yourself and welcome, after so many years, to my ignore list,

Mod Note:

No part of this post comports with ENWorld’s expected conduct. It is personal. It is rude.

And it closes with telling someone you’re putting them on your ignore list- something we prefer posters don’t do. Using the list is fine, and in many cases, encouraged. Announcing or threatening its use is inflammatory.

You’ve been here quite a while; there’s no excuse for this kind of behavior. Don’t do it again.

 

[Imaro]

IOW presentation, not substance.

Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by upstream and downstream?

And no we’re not focusing on just one. Over and over it gets pointed out that every single one of those “sand in the gears” elements are in 5e. Every one of them.

Non magical healing and healing rates. Turning every character into a caster. Lack of mechanics that are not combat focused. Dissociated mechanics. Changed and rewritten monster lore. The list goes on and on.

But it’s okay because they don’t have 4e cooties on them.

I am curious... if you believe 5e has so much 4e DNA in it and it's for the most part just a matter of presentation... why do you think many 4e fans aren't fans of 5e?

 

[darjr]

IOW presentation, not substance.

Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by upstream and downstream?

And no we’re not focusing on just one. Over and over it gets pointed out that every single one of those “sand in the gears” elements are in 5e. Every one of them.

Non magical healing and healing rates. Turning every character into a caster. Lack of mechanics that are not combat focused. Dissociated mechanics. Changed and rewritten monster lore. The list goes on and on.

But it’s okay because they don’t have 4e cooties on them.

Then why not just play 5e? If it’s essentially 4e anyway?

 

[Parmandur]

I am curious... if you believe 5e has so much 4e DNA in it and it's for the most part just a matter of presentation... why do you think many 4e fans aren't fans of 5e?

I mean, there are 4E Grognards out there hating on 5E, but it frankly it seems to me that most people who enjoyed 4E did actually move on to 5E?

Then why not just play 5e? If it’s essentially 4e anyway?

I believe that @Hussar does play 5E, and one of the reasons is what he likes in common between 4E and 5E.

 

[Voadam]

I am curious... if you believe 5e has so much 4e DNA in it and it's for the most part just a matter of presentation... why do you think many 4e fans aren't fans of 5e?

I think a lot of 4e fans are fans of 5e, I am for one.

But there are a lot of ways where 5e weakens strengths of 4e.

Monster math.
Interesting mechanical monster abilities.
Defined monster roles with mechanics that make them work (brutes, skirmisher, artillery, etc.).
Minions and elites and solos.
Player class balance.
Class roles.
Defender stuff.
Lack of warlords.
Encounter based powers.
Multiple at will attack options.
Skill challenges.
Tactical combat abilities.
Movement powers in combat.
Inherent bonuses from DMG 2 to keep the math working smoothly without magic items.
Defined rules like what happens with flanking.
Encounter versus short rest length.
Healing surges.
Effective healing in combat.

 

[cavalier973]

I am curious... if you believe 5e has so much 4e DNA in it and it's for the most part just a matter of presentation... why do you think many 4e fans aren't fans of 5e?

For my part, it’s the (from my perspective) elevating of the Forgotten Realms as the core campaign world. I was a huge fan of the Nentir Vale. FR is not to my taste.

 

[darjr]

There is a relevant little piece of info in Bens latest musings.

I will mention that on 4th edition, my sources tell me the dev team was given plenty of time to work on rules and research, and then told from on high that they were publishing in a mere six months. This imposition of an artificial deadline led to problems in the rules. Is that repeating here?

I added that I think they almost have to do it and could just update the SRD. With the CC though it’s almost a moot point.

If the point was to kill the OGL, it succeeded, and the community around the OGL evaporated or went elsewhere.

Shannon Appelcline responded much the same and made me realize that maybe the inkling of Ben’s speculation is why WotC went with species instead of the more common term lineage.

I am pessimistic about the inclusion of an OGL for OneD&D.

I would like to add here that I am completely speculating, and have no insider knowledge of this, but if Wizards is releasing OneD&D in the spring, and they wanted any 3rd party publishers to be able to have a product ready to coincide with the launch, an SRD and OGL should be available by now.

So why is there no SRD and OGL?

There are two possible reasons IMHO.

1) The rules aren’t ready yet. Again, with a spring publication deadline, that is not an encouraging thought. I will mention that on 4th edition, my sources tell me the dev team was given plenty of time to work on rules and research, and then told from on high that they were publishing in a mere six months. This imposition of an artificial deadline led to problems in the rules. Is that repeating here?

2) There will be no OGL for OneD&D. Perhaps, as with 5th edition, the OGL will simply follow later on, but I am very pessimistic about that too. Clearly, there is a faction at Wizards that wants to kill the OGL. Revoking the original OGL is much different than not providing one for a new edition of the game. It is easy to imagine that a possible compromise worked out at Wizards was that 5th edition could enter the creative commons while the juicy new edition was kept for the exclusive use of Wizards/Hasbro.

If you find me interesting, my history of the fall of TSR is now available in paperback. Link below!

Obligatory link to Ben’s book. I think it’s awesome.

Slaying the Dragon - Macmillan

The secret and untold story of how TSR, the company that created Dungeons & Dragons, was driven into ruin by disastrous management decisions, then ...

read.macmillan.com

As always there is great commentary and feedback to the Facebook post.

Facebooks link

 

[Zeromaru X]

I mean, there are 4E Grognards out there hating on 5E, but it frankly it seems to me that most people who enjoyed 4E did actually move on to 5E?

Most of us were forced to move on to 5e, as people didn't wanted to play 4e in public games. I still prefer 4e, and run it when I can.