D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Zardnaar]

It also helps that 5e restored elements of that by including backgrounds, tool proficiencies, and centering the game around making ability checks instead of following 4e’s lead in burying that under improvised actions and badwrongfunning the whole idea in its marketing.

For Mir stupid it also started to blow up in video games around 4E release as well.

KoToR II had crafting 2004 iirc probably wasn't the first game to do it.

 

[Hussar]

It also helps that 5e restored elements of that by including backgrounds, tool proficiencies, and centering the game around making ability checks instead of following 4e’s lead in burying that under improvised actions and badwrongfunning the whole idea in its marketing.

And you perfectly illustrate his point.

5e doesn’t have any crafting rules. It just doesn’t. But that’s perfectly fine because they didn’t say mean things about crafting in 5e marketing?

Again presentation vs substance.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And you perfectly illustrate his point.

5e doesn’t have any crafting rules. It just doesn’t. But that’s perfectly fine because they didn’t say mean things about crafting in 5e marketing?

Again presentation vs substance.

I don't think it's fine. I use 3pp crafting rules in my 5e games.

 

[billd91]

And you perfectly illustrate his point.

5e doesn’t have any crafting rules. It just doesn’t. But that’s perfectly fine because they didn’t say mean things about crafting in 5e marketing?

Again presentation vs substance.

My rulebooks have crafting via downtime activities. So…. Substance rules. Bad arguments drool.

 

[Justice and Rule]

My rulebooks have crafting via downtime activities. So…. Substance rules. Bad arguments drool.

Xanathar's doesn't really have "rules" on crafting as much as it has a page of very broad "guidelines". I really wouldn't call them "substance" as much as "placeholder".

 

[Kannik]

That'd be a cool book. Hope someone writes it some day.

Heheh, believe me I've been super keen for a while to take that on to write/coordinate/edit/manage something like that... but I haven't been able to find any supply of bottled time for all the projects I am doing. If anyone finds a supplier, please please please let me know!

 

[Red Castle]

If some guidelines work as substancial rules for crafting, I don’t see why the Enchant Magic item ritual, Alchemy feat and Forge Weapon/Armor Martial Practice wouldn’t.

 

[pemerton]

If some guidelines work as substancial rules for crafting, I don’t see why the Enchant Magic item ritual, Alchemy feat and Forge Weapon/Armor Martial Practice wouldn’t.

Here's an actual play account of crafting from a 4e campaign:

Another thing that had been planned for some time, by the player of the dwarf fighter-cleric, was to have his dwarven smiths reforge Whelm - a dwarven thrower warhammer artefact (originally from White Plume Mountain) - into Overwhelm, the same thing but as a morenkrad (the character is a two-hander specialist). And with this break from adventure he finally had he chance.

Again I adjudicated it as a complexity 1 (4 before 3) skill challenge. The fighter-cleric had succeeded at Dungeoneering (the closest in 4e to an engineering skill) and Diplomacy (to keep his dwarven artificers at the forge as the temperature and magical energies rise to unprecedented heights). The wizard had succeeded at Arcana (to keep the magical forces in check). But the fighter-cleric failed his Religion check - he was praying to Moradin to help with the process, but it wasn't enough. So he shoved his hands into the forge and held down the hammer with brute strength! (Successful Endurance against a Hard DC.) His hands were burned and scarred, but the dwarven smiths were finally able to grab the hammer head with their tongs, and then beat and pull it into its new shape.

The wizard then healed the dwarf PC with a Remove Affliction (using Fundamental Ice as the material component), and over the course of a few weeks the burns healed. (Had the Endurance check failed, things would have played out much the same, but I'd decided that the character would feel the pang of the burns again whenever he picked up Overwhelm.)

In running this particular challenge, I was the one who called for the Dungeoneering and Diplomacy checks. It was the players who initiated the other checks. In particular, the player of the dwarf PC realised that while his character is not an artificer, he is the toughtest dwarf around. This is what led him to say "I want to stick my hands into the forge and grab Whelm. Can I make an Endurance check for that?" An unexpected manoeuvre!

 

[Red Castle]

Here's an actual play account of crafting from a 4e campaign:

That's exactly what I had in mind I would do if I wanted to make the crafting of an item important in a game: a Skill Challenge. This way it doesn't rely just on one roll, it asks for creativity from the players, and everyone play a part in the process instead of just standing there waiting for the smith to succeed or fail. Simple, yet fun and elegant.

Quite frankly, I don't get the obsession of needing all proficiencies of the characters written on their sheet, needing to see it written as proof that their character is proficient, especially for more artistic skills like crafting, dancing or music instrument. Why can't your character can't just be very good at it right from the start. You want your dwarven fighter to be the best smith in the region because it makes sense with his background? Why not? Characters are heroes so yeah, I expect them to be good at what they do in more mundane tasks. No need to have a skill to prove it, keep those precious skill points for skills that will actually matter in the game. Don't skill tax a player for his background.

Because honestly, why does it matter anyway? Why the need for a skill. It's not really important. Even if the player actually start a forge to sell weapons and armors, he won't make a ton of money out of it, especially compared to what he'll make adventuring... but if that's what he want to do, just go with it. Assume that he's good at what he does and has the skill to make tools, weapons and armors and sell some. Decide on an a little amount of gold he made during the downtime and move on to the next adventure. You want to make a minigame out of it to see how good it went? Why not? Maybe an Endurance check to see how much time he spent in the forge, a diplomacy check to negociate the prices with customers (if PC always negociate to buy, assume that NPC will also bargain with the PC) or just to see if someone will actually buy it (it's not because you crafted a beautiful sword that there is a demand for it, so I would argue that if a player wanted to start a buisness, diplomacy would be more important than an actual skill to create the item) It's easy to make a rule on the fly if suddenly it matter. You can just create a little downtime income table, roll on it and move on. This table could also work for the bard if he wants to spend all his time singing in the local tavern.

And that leads me to the other thing I don't get. Why do you need an actual rule for it? In most campaign, it will never matter anyway. But if you're in one of the rare campaign where it could matter, why not just make your own rule for it that actually fit your table? The game expect the DM to create stories, a world fill with multiple NPCs, monsters and big bad evil guy, different challenges and puzzles... and they deliver. So why is it so difficult to create a rule if you are one of the few that needs it? It's so easy. And it's not because there is no rule in a game that it means it doesn't support it. As far as I know, there is not really a rule for gambling, but it doesn't stop DMs to create their own mini game, mini casino. It also doesn't mean that the game doesn't support gambling. Your table, your game, your rules.

 

[Hussar]

My rulebooks have crafting via downtime activities. So…. Substance rules. Bad arguments drool.

lol

Seriously? The crafting rules are you can craft 5gp towards an item per day.

Yeah. Those are some extensive rules. Totally see how that covers crafting.

But hey, they do exist. That’s true. So so long as they don’t say mean things about crafting, any rules are fine I guess.