D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Maxperson]

The 3e Forgotten Realms guides said everyone needs to have a deity, or they get sucked into the wall. All clerics, druids, and paladins had deities. But AFAIK that's the only setting in the only edition that ever strictly required it.

1e required it. Spells came to you from your god via intermediaries, except for 7th level spells which were brought personally by the god. In 2e you could get 1st and 2nd level spells by faith alone, regardless of where that faith was placed. The Clerics Handbook(I forget the exact name) mentions philosophies and forces as possible sources of spells.

Oh, and the 3.5e PHB said that you could be a cleric of a cause or a source of divine power that wasn't a god.

 

[Voadam]

Its funny, I do not like the versions of D&D cosmology where belief and faith granted clerics their power, but I really like Mage the Ascension where all of reality is shaped by will and belief and paradigm framing can be powerful.

 

[Maxperson]

So where do the gods get their power? Rather than clerics needing deities, what if it's deities that actually need clerics to get their powers?

Yes. It's a symbiotic relationship. Gods get power from their followers and souls of their followers, and clerics get power from their gods and followers get the occasional miracle.

 

[Voadam]

1e required it. Spells came to you from your god via intermediaries, except for 7th level spells which were brought personally by the god. In 2e you could get 1st and 2nd level spells by faith alone, regardless of where that faith was placed. The Clerics Handbook(I forget the exact name) mentions philosophies and forces as possible sources of spells.

Oh, and the 3.5e PHB said that you could be a cleric of a cause or a source of divine power that wasn't a god.

1e granted first and second level cleric spells through training alone, when cut off by your god you can only access first and second level spells, but you can still cast those cleric spells and use cleric only magic items.

 

[TwoSix]

Yes. It's a symbiotic relationship. Gods get power from their followers and souls of their followers, and clerics get power from their gods and followers get the occasional miracle.

So gods get powers from your soul, but you can't get power from your soul unless a god gives it to you, huh?

Sounds like a godly conspiracy to me!

 

[DarkCrisis]

Its funny, I do not like the versions of D&D cosmology where belief and faith granted clerics their power, but I really like Mage the Ascension where all of reality is shaped by will and belief and paradigm framing can be powerful.

Really it’s fine, except when they change established campaign worlds to fit their new gaming narrative. Atleast Faerun had the good sense of having some cataclysm to usher in a change. Now-a-days it’s just “it’s always been this way”.

 

[Maxperson]

There are dominions in the Astral Sea with and without gods, unaligned, that a Cleric might connect with.

This is wrong. The astral has never, at least in 1e, 2e, 3e or 5e, contained the outer or inner planes. Think of the astral as grease in an engine. The engine parts are not inside the grease. The grease runs around the separate engine parts.

 

[Maxperson]

it might not be in a grand or flashy way but i can believe that you could have a humble innkeeper as a paladin fighting against the dark, who believes in keeping people's souls bright and strong through a well seasoned meal cooked with homely care, a friendly conversation around the firepit and providing a soft, warm bed on a cold night.

If it's done right, sure. Such an innkeeper isn't going to sit tight in his inn, though. He's going to be out in the world bringing hospitality to those who go without, fighting the tyrants who keep the masses starving, etc.

 

[Yaarel]

This is wrong. The astral has never, at least in 1e, 2e, 3e or 5e, contained the outer or inner planes. Think of the astral as grease in an engine. The engine parts are not inside the grease. The grease runs around the separate engine parts.

We have this discussion before. The relationship between the dominions of the Astral Sea and the disparate domains of an Outer Plane require clarification.

In any case, there are dominions floating in the Astral Sea, "where gods dwell", such as Hestavar.

 

[Maxperson]

1e granted first and second level cleric spells through training alone, when cut off by your god you can only access first and second level spells, but you can still cast those cleric spells and use cleric only magic items.

I always forget whether it was 1e or 2e that did that.