D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Minigiant]

If you think that magic is "free" you are not considering what belief on that level entails.

I still go by the thought of

"99% of Godless Clerics have near crippling mental illness. Without an intelligent divine being filtering and metering power via observation of faith, a cleric of no god would have to either be beyond fanatical to access the same power OR driven mad by the direct font of divinity lain apon their mortal mind"

$Free.99. Only costs your sanity or personality.

 

[Voadam]

Everyone's magic defaults from the Weave.

The differences are the intermediaries. Clerics have gods. Sorcerer have their origins as a connection.

The question is how the oath grants access to the weave if it isn't either intelligent, managed, or fundamental.

The default in D&D is that either your study, magical nature, or magical master connect you to the Weave.

Which is it for Oaths?

Paladin oaths seem to be fundamental, do X get Y, just like arcane wizard magic and I would think bardic magic.

Sort of like Styx oaths in Greek myths, a specific magical phenomena that just exists.

 

[Yaarel]

I still go by the though of

"99% of Godless Clerics have near crippling mental illness. Without an intelligent divine being filtering and metering power via observation of faith, a cleric of no god would have to either be beyond fanatical to access the same power OR driven mad by the direct font of divinity lain apon their mortal mind"

$Free.99. Only costs your sanity or personality.

I see the Cleric "Astral" magic as moreorless a D&D version of the Jungian archetypes of the collective unconscious.

It is a useful concept, gameable, flavorful, sufficiently relevant to the sacred, and orienting by culture and community. There is even a kind of psychological mysticism relating to "synchronicity".

 

[Maxperson]

Everyone's magic defaults from the Weave.

The differences are the intermediaries. Clerics have gods. Sorcerer have their origins as a connection.

The question is how the oath grants access to the weave if it isn't either intelligent, managed, or fundamental.

The default in D&D is that either your study, magical nature, or magical master connect you to the Weave.

Which is it for Oaths?

It's essentially force of will translated through faith in the oath's tenets. The belief and faith so fanatically strong, the paladin can pull divine magic directly from the weave.

 

[Maxperson]

So the oath is Truenaming.

The Paladin beats the Truespeak DC to turn themselves magical.

If that's how you want to call it in your game, sure. To me truenaming magic requires a lot of learning to gain the true names of things and then speak them properly.

RAW, though, doesn't support that. Fanatical faith is not the same as speaking true names.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Look how everyone has to bend over backwards to explain the Paladin's Oath Powers when it could just easily be done with "A god did it."

 

[Yaarel]

Look how everyone has to bend over backwards to explain the Paladin's Oath Powers when it could just easily be done with "A god did it."

"A god did it" is almost the opposite of flavor.

More important: how did a Paladin come to value this specific ideal or ethic? What is this ideal exactly? When does it apply, when doesnt it? How does the Paladin CARRY OUT this ideal?

The practical day to day activity − what does this Paladin DO − is far more important and far more flavorful.

What is the Paladin community like? What do the other members do to carry out the ideal. Is the Paladin in good standing? Does the Paladin have community obligations?

The Paladin is the one who the other players meet. The Paladin oneself is the flavor.

 

[Maxperson]

Look how everyone has to bend over backwards to explain the Paladin's Oath Powers when it could just easily be done with "A god did it."

I hardly think fanatical faith in their oath is "bending over backwards."

 

[TwoSix]

Look how everyone has to bend over backwards to explain the Paladin's Oath Powers when it could just easily be done with "A god did it."

"An oath did it" and "a god did it" make equivalent amounts of sense for pretty much any fantasy conception.

 

[Voadam]

Its funny, in both the AD&D 1e and 2e PH paladin descriptions there is no mention of gods. The closest is the 1e tithing requirement "An immediate tithe (10%) of all income — be it treasure, wages, or whatever — must be given to whatever charitable religious institution (not a clerical player character) of lawful good alignment the paladin selects." and the similar 2e one "A paladin must tithe to whatever charitable, religious institution of lawful good alignment he serves. A tithe is 10% of the paladin’s income, whether coins, jewels, magical items, wages, rewards, or taxes. It must be paid immediately."

They just get clerical spells and powers and unique paladin powers and their alignment and code restrictions.

In 3e they are tied to and powered by divine power but not the gods.

3.5 PH page 43: "Religion: A paladin need not devote herself to a single deity—devotion to righteousness is enough. Those paladins who do align themselves with particular religions prefer Heironeous (god of valor) over all others, but some paladins follow Pelor (god of the sun). Paladins devoted to a god are scrupulous in observing religious duties and are welcome in every associated temple."

It is only in the 4e PH that Paladins core need a deity.

"Paladins are indomitable warriors who’ve pledged their prowess to something greater than themselves. Paladins smite enemies with divine authority, bolster the courage of nearby companions, and radiate as if a beacon of inextinguishable hope. Paladins are transfigured on the field of battle, exemplars of divine ethos in action.
To you is given the responsibility to unflinchingly stand before an enemy’s charge, smiting them with your sword while protecting your allies with your sacrifice."

"Warriors wielding divine power can be found in the service of any deity, even evil or chaotic evil ones."

"As fervent crusaders in their chosen cause, paladins must choose a deity. Paladins choose a specific faith to serve, as well as an alignment. You must choose an alignment identical to the alignment of your patron deity"