D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Minigiant]

Paladin oaths seem to be fundamental, do X get Y, just like arcane wizard magic and I would think bardic magic.

Sort of like Styx oaths in Greek myths, a specific magical phenomena that just exists.

But Wizard and Bard magic are essentially learned science and art.

How or What meters out the magic of the Oath. How judges the faith of the blessed?

Or is that part of the oath.

Wizard magic is learnable by anyone. It's just super hard math and grammar.

The equivalence Wizard, Bardic, and Warlock magic to Paladin magic is were it gets wonky.

 

[Minigiant]

Its funny, in both the AD&D 1e and 2e PH paladin descriptions there is no mention of gods. The closest is the 1e tithing requirement "An immediate tithe (10%) of all income — be it treasure, wages, or whatever — must be given to whatever charitable religious institution (not a clerical player character) of lawful good alignment the paladin selects." and the similar 2e one "A paladin must tithe to whatever charitable, religious institution of lawful good alignment he serves. A tithe is 10% of the paladin’s income, whether coins, jewels, magical items, wages, rewards, or taxes. It must be paid immediately."

They just get clerical spells and powers and unique paladin powers and their alignment and code restrictions.

In 3e they are tied to and powered by divine power but not the gods.

3.5 PH page 43: "Religion: A paladin need not devote herself to a single deity—devotion to righteousness is enough. Those paladins who do align themselves with particular religions prefer Heironeous (god of valor) over all others, but some paladins follow Pelor (god of the sun). Paladins devoted to a god are scrupulous in observing religious duties and are welcome in every associated temple."

It is only in the 4e PH that Paladins core need a deity.

"Paladins are indomitable warriors who’ve pledged their prowess to something greater than themselves. Paladins smite enemies with divine authority, bolster the courage of nearby companions, and radiate as if a beacon of inextinguishable hope. Paladins are transfigured on the field of battle, exemplars of divine ethos in action.
To you is given the responsibility to unflinchingly stand before an enemy’s charge, smiting them with your sword while protecting your allies with your sacrifice."

"Warriors wielding divine power can be found in the service of any deity, even evil or chaotic evil ones."

"As fervent crusaders in their chosen cause, paladins must choose a deity. Paladins choose a specific faith to serve, as well as an alignment. You must choose an alignment identical to the alignment of your patron deity"

Well before 4e, you had to luck out on excellent stat rolls or adhere to a rigid alignment.

4e took away ability score prerequisites and alignment and gave a boss.

5e took away the god, lucky cheat rolls, and the alignment shackles. And made the class stronger.

 

[gorice]

This thread is a pretty good argument for bringing D&D back to Moorcock-style 'Law and Chaos as cosmic forces' type stuff (which I think has been missing from this discussion).

Paladins don't need to believe in particular god, or even Chaos itself: they just need to perform the correct rites. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows...

 

[Voadam]

This thread is a pretty good argument for bringing D&D back to Moorcock-style 'Law and Chaos as cosmic forces' type stuff (which I think has been missing from this discussion).

Paladins don't need to believe in particular god, or even Chaos itself: they just need to perform the correct rites. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows...

In OD&D Supplement I Greyhawk where they first appear it was pure Law and Chaos, they had to be Lawful and risked falling if they ever did a chaotic act.

"Charisma scores of 17 or greater by fighters indicate the possibility of paladin status IF THEY ARE LAWFUL from the commencement of play for that character. If such fighters elect to they can then become paladins, always doing lawful deeds, for any chaotic act will immediately revoke the status of paladin, and it can never be regained. "

 

[DarkCrisis]

"An oath did it" and "a god did it" make equivalent amounts of sense for pretty much any fantasy conception.

Except you can visit divine clerics who can pretty much prove the gods exist. Heck they happen to come down and talk to people on occasion. Time of Troubles etc.

Can't do that with an Oath.

 

[Voadam]

Except you can visit divine clerics who can pretty much prove the gods exist. Heck they happen to come down and talk to people on occasion. Time of Troubles etc.

Can't do that with an Oath.

How do clerics prove gods exist? Particularly with non-theistic philosophy clerics as an option existing. If you are a skeptic about the gods clerics look a lot like other magic users.

I am also not seeing your distinction here. You can visit paladins who swore the oaths and got powers from them. It is also conceivable to see someone swear their paladin oath.

 

[DarkCrisis]

How do clerics prove gods exist? Particularly with non-theistic philosophy clerics as an option existing. If you are a skeptic about the gods clerics look a lot like other magic users.

I am also not seeing your distinction here. You can visit paladins who swore the oaths and got powers from them. It is also conceivable to see someone swear their paladin oath.

Again in Faerun the gods exist. They walked the land. Still do. If Torm came down from the heavens and walked up to you, you just going to deny he exists? This isn't real world relgions we are talking about. This is Greek and Norse etc level where the gods do physically interact with the mortals.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

In OD&D Supplement I Greyhawk where they first appear it was pure Law and Chaos, they had to be Lawful and risked falling if they ever did a chaotic act.

"Charisma scores of 17 or greater by fighters indicate the possibility of paladin status IF THEY ARE LAWFUL from the commencement of play for that character. If such fighters elect to they can then become paladins, always doing lawful deeds, for any chaotic act will immediately revoke the status of paladin, and it can never be regained. "

Yes, but a chaos paladin is way cooler.

 

[Voadam]

Again in Faerun the gods exist. They walked the land. Still do. If Torm came down from the heavens and walked up to you, you just going to deny he exists? This isn't real world relgions we are talking about. This is Greek and Norse etc level where the gods do physically interact with the mortals.

How are you establishing the being that exists is a god and not a different type of magical being?

Is that lightning bolt hurling being who claims to be Zeus a storm giant or a god?

 

[Minigiant]

How are you establishing the being that exists is a god and not a different type of magical being?

Is that lightning bolt hurling being who claims to be Zeus a storm giant or a god?

They grant spells.

Especially spells higher than 3rd level.