D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[James Gasik]

is an action movie hero supernatural?

Uh, yeah. I mean, how else can John Wick lose enough blood for five people and still keep killing things?

 

[TwoSix]

Wizards in the HP verse are, by definition, not normal humans (who are called Muggles in an example of fantastic racism).

But no one is calling wizards "not-human". They're humans with a special ability, but they're still human.

 

[Remathilis]

I think that's a bit more than is necessary; most people are using "human" to refer to their appearance or concept, not their actual capabilities.

No one says Harry Potter isn't a human, even though he has capabilities that are impossible for an actual Earth human.

I mean, Superman looks human. Compared to other aliens like Hawkman of Martian Manhunter, he is basically a human in all ways but capacities. But no one calls him a human. He's a Kryptonian.

 

[TwoSix]

I mean, Superman looks human. Compared to other aliens like Hawkman of Martian Manhunter, he is basically a human in all ways but capacities. But no one calls him a human. He's a Kryptonian.

Right. But there's obviously a spectrum. Appearance is a major part, but capabilities at a certain point matter also.

Like most things in life, there's no pat categorization or bright lines of division.

 

[James Gasik]

But no one is calling wizards "not-human". They're humans with a special ability, but they're still human.

Well, given how humans can be...there's a reason Wizards in that universe try to stay hidden. Because the rest of humanity at large might very well dehumanize them. But that's bleaker and more cynical than I really want to be at the moment.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ok, so there's these two schools of thought. One, that player characters are special in the game. The other that they are not special.

I think your going to have to elaborate on what you mean by ‘not special’ because I don’t think you are meaning that term in the same way as those that use it to describe their playstyle.

If you adhere to the first, everything makes sense. The player character human is magical and can do crazy stuff because it's assumed he's special.

Strong disagree here as well. Believing the PCs are special doesn’t imply the PCs are magical or superhuman.

But if you adhere to the second, things kind of break down because player characters can have classes and magic and preternatural abilities that only special people should have...and yet, we're saying they aren't special?

That’s never been what’s meant by calling them ‘not special’.

Like I said, if we say some people can do these things but most people can't, so the ones that can are the exceptions, and the player characters are always exceptions, great!

Whether PCs are exceptions has no bearing on their magicalness.

But if someone starts saying "some people can do these things but most people can't and player characters aren't particularly special or noteworthy in the world" and yet just about every player has these special traits...yeah.

Guess level 1 wizards have always broke that mold, eh? Not so! Special was always relative to the fictional world. Are you the only level 1 wizard or are there others. That’s what special/not special meant.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But Faerun humans can do things Earth humans can't, despite implicitly in-universe supposed to be descendants of Earth people.

Consider this. John Carter, Jeddak of Jeddaks, Warlord of Mars is an Earth human (supposedly, let's not get into how old he might be).

But on Barsoom, he's a heavy gravity lifeform on a planet with less gravity, giving him superhuman powers despite not explicitly (longevity aside) being human.

So one could easily state that being exposed to a world suffused with magical energy, coming from a world that doesn't have magical beasts and Elves running around could give you abilities beyond mortal ken. It's a very old literary trope.

And there's a lot of evidence to support this in D&D, historically. It's hard to prove if psychic abilities exist on our planet, even if someone pulls off an incredible thing, they probably can't do it again on command under scrutiny, at least with consistency.

But a D&D human could totally have psionics and be able to perform them again and again on command.

Now Micah, I know what your objection is. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, D&D never states that it's humans are not the same as Earth humans. Well, at least, not that I've ever seen. And it's a valid point that it probably should. One shouldn't have to use logic or deep dive into the game's worlds and mechanics to discern this fact. It should be obvious.

And certainly, mechanical arguments are difficult because it's hard to differentiate between "the game is making an absolute statement about the capabilities of (insert thing)" from "this is an abstraction for ease of play". Which leads to a lot of these same arguments.

I can prove that there are humans in Faerun who are not like Earth humans and do things humans can't. It was actually quite trivial to do in prior editions, a little harder in 5e, but still possible. What does that mean, though? What are we supposed to take away from that?

The game books stay silent on the issue, and for good reason- the idea that humans aren't humans might not be something you want in your game. And that's not necessarily a bad thing (I called it a mistake upthread, but that's mostly because I tire of some of these talking points, lol).

The truth is, D&D shouldn't tell you what isn't possible. It should tell you what could be possible. D&D is for everyone, everyone has a right to play and have fun in their own way. If that means you want to view the game with the default assumption that it starts with our world with exceptions, and that makes the game more enjoyable for you and your group- go for it!

You just have to occasionally squint and look the other way when there are exceptions that aren't stated. I mean, the core system has abstractions that we really shouldn't engage with because they make no sense, like, you know, hit points, armor class, and so on.

However, it's an equally valid way to play the game to look at these exceptions as defining the game's worlds and settings. I would say to a point, or you get a Tippyverse which does not resemble traditional D&D at all, but it's still valid, as long as the game remains fun for the players.

For example, despite explicitly being stated as being Earth in the past, there exists humans in Middle-Earth with abilities Earth humans don't have (Aragorn, with his High Numenorean lineage). Does this mean Men in Middle-Earth aren't humans? Or should we take it to mean that, in a world where magic is at a higher level than it is (apparently) on our planet now that humans have additional capabilities we don't seem to possess?

Thanks for covering my side of the argument; saves me from having to do it!

I will say that, given the Valar-driven changes to the Men who became Numenorians (and thus their descendents) after the War of Wrath and the end of the First Age, an argument can be made that Aragon and those of similar heritage are not in fact completely human. This would be particularly true in the case of Aragon, who has traces of Elf and even Maia (from Luthien's mother Melian the Maiar) in his ancestry.

 

[TwoSix]

Well, given how humans can be...there's a reason Wizards in that universe try to stay hidden. Because the rest of humanity at large might very well dehumanize them. But that's bleaker and more cynical than I really want to be at the moment.

There's a lot of moral and ethical issues in the Potter-verse that aren't even remotely explored, because it's a fun story first and the world-building is a distant second.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Not an issue at level 1-5 though?

Not sure what you mean. Level Up fighters get cool stuff at low levels too.

 

[FrogReaver]

Not sure what you mean. Level Up fighters get cool stuff at low levels too.

I’m really confused. No one is talking about level up.