D&D General New Interview with Rob Heinsoo About 4E

[niklinna]

I thought that was the warlord, shouting sewing limbs back on.

The basic flaw in the argument about shouting limbs back on is, I never saw any power in 4e that could remove a limb in the first place.

 

[Neonchameleon]

We are all in agreement on that point, but it's really weird on 5e feels like a VERY selfish game. There's near zero occasion where spending your action improving an ally is more optimal than inflicting damage yourself. Adventurers work together but they very rarely feel like a team. It almost feels purposefully designed to enable single PC games.

I think that the removal of flanking removed a lot from the game. And there's very little like the "provoke tactics" I used to revel in in 4e where my characters would provoke opportunity attacks if there was a nearby defender (a sadly diminished role) so that the enemy would take the defender's mark punishment. Also a loss of forced movement is a problem. As is the general diminishing of tactics by making little point in mugging the back line or kiting the front.

You know, it's odd. In 4e I don't mind AEDU, I rather really like it... but in 5e I like when class, and especially subclass, have new mechanics of their own. Maybe I just like mechanics for the sake of them.

AEDU, being consistent, can be pretty much ignored. But pacing is character defining in 5e.

Except the daily casters. Screw spell slots, I hate them. Spells are a pain in the butt to use because of all the page flipping, and they're more often than not too boring.

I think Warlock is a great blend here

 

[pemerton]

The "all classes feel samey" argument in regards to 4e is an example of that. Making fighters just re-skinned wizards would be a huge negative to the game - in spite of being objectively better balanced.

The idea that the fiction of my class depends on the resource and recovery schedule of my class is a distinctive D&D-ism. 4e departs from it. The reason a fighter feels different from a wizard, in 4e, is not the resource schedule but rather what their abilities can actually do - which includes having regard to their keywords.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The basic flaw in the argument about shouting limbs back on is, I never saw any power in 4e that could remove a limb in the first place.

ah yes the other nugget of the edition war... if a warlord could shout a limb back on then a 5e fighter can bonus action an arm back on...

 

[pemerton]

The basic flaw in the argument about shouting limbs back on is, I never saw any power in 4e that could remove a limb in the first place.

Yeah, there's that too.

It's important that we imagine limbs being cut off at the moment of combat, and that we imagine limbs being cut off when we want to make fun of the warlord, but that we forget about them when the hit points are recovered with a few night's rest, or are restored by the curing of some light wounds.

 

[Undrave]

Yeah. That. Everyone having the same (or similar) goals does not mean they're working together as a team.

In my experience with B/X and AD&D, the players worked together as a team. There was no mechanical support for it per se. But everyone understood their character's strengths and weaknesses and worked together to cover each other. In 4E, the players worked together as a team. There was tons of mechanical support for it. You could easily argue that was the point. To mechanically reinforce the "no really, teamwork wins" aspect. In 5E, in my experience, the players all happen to be near each other and vaguely working towards the same (or similar) goals, but there's basically zero team work in play and there's almost nothing encouraging teamwork in the game. The aid action is "suboptimal" in just about every circumstance. A few buff spells exist, sure. But they're used as basic min-max spells and there's no real mechanical push for proper synergistic, all together as a team kind of play.

I think that the removal of flanking removed a lot from the game. And there's very little like the "provoke tactics" I used to revel in in 4e where my characters would provoke opportunity attacks if there was a nearby defender (a sadly diminished role) so that the enemy would take the defender's mark punishment. Also a loss of forced movement is a problem. As is the general diminishing of tactics by making little point in mugging the back line or kiting the front.

I was going to mention flanking too! Just that feels like it would ad more importance to maneuvering, but because of the way OA works compared to 4e it'd be maybe too easy?

I think Warlock is a great blend here

Absolutely! Amazing class!

 

[niklinna]

ah yes the other nugget of the edition war... if a warlord could shout a limb back on then a 5e fighter can bonus action an arm back on...

Well see but in 5e it has to be your own arm. That's realistic. (But hang on, point me at a thing in 5e that removes a limb....)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yeah, there's that too.

It's important that we imagine limbs being cut off at the moment of combat, and that we imagine limbs being cut off when we want to make fun of the warlord, but that we forget about them when the hit points are recovered with a few night's rest, or are restored by the curing of some light wounds.

it's when you don't like something it feels like it's wrong... when you like it, then it is a minor issue.

just like me and my buddy can watch the same TV show and pick it apart or not based on us likeing it or not.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Well see but in 5e it has to be your own arm. That's realistic. (But hang on, point me at a thing in 5e that removes a limb....)

I don't think we have had limb removal since 3e...

 

[niklinna]

Absolutely! Amazing class!

Huh. I've always thought it was kind of a mess, but it definitely offers more options than any of the other classes. Might have been nice if they took that approach to martials too, or classes/subclasses in general. A5E came close with its take on the Ranger (and some other classes), but even though most class/subclass features gave you a variety of picks, that was your once chance to get any of them.