WotC WotC can, and probably should support multiple editions of D&D.

[Parmandur]

During the 1E heyday TSR was selling over 100,000 copies of Dragon Magazine a month and had dozens (hundreds?) of adventures in print in addition to the hardcover books. Also of you look at the data, it does report a higher number of PHBs sold, but fewer of every other comparable hardcover they have numbers listed for.

I don't think 5E has nearly the volume of print copy 1E had (although online sales close this a lot I think). I was around and buying d&d in the 1980s and I know the bookstores and hobby shops certainly had more volume and more varied volume on their shelves than they do today. I remember d&d took up a third of the BDalton bookstore in our local mall. Now that was not all 1E and did include BXCMI stuff too.

Based on the numbers Ben Riggs shared a while back, just about everything other than the core books sold way less all the time.

100,000 magazines is one thing, but that pales in comparison to D&D Beyond user numbers that are over 10 million. 5E is way way bugger than 1E or Basic were, combined.

 

[Blue]

"Probably should" and "can" only require a business plan if you are starting a business. It doesn't ever seem that @bmfrosty was trying to start a business based on the original post.

Let me summarize:

bmfrosty: "WotC (a large business) can and should do this."
Blue: "That will take a business plan that shows it's feasible."
Hex08: "You only need a business plan if you are starting a business."

Thank you for your insight that large businesses do not need business plans, only new ones. I will respectfully agree to disagree.

 

[Blue]

No, but they do have a bearing on what @Moonmover thinks about the various settings. Maybe I shouldn't speak for someone else but I didn't read anything in the post you replied to about the history of TSR or their financial troubles, all I saw was a player's opinion on how much fun it was mashing settings together. His opinion may or may not apply to others but there was certainly nothing wrong about the post.

Again, let me summarize:

Chaltab: D&D has tried having multiple competing product lines before and it emphatically didn't work. The whole reason TSR went bankrupt is that they had all these competing D&D products that were by and large mutually exclusive--both D&D and AD&D, not to mention TSR's other non-D&D games and multiple mutually incompatible AD&D settings.

Moonmover: The various AD&D 2e settings are not as incompatible as they appear at first glance. Smashing them together can make for a good time.

Blue: The proliferation of settings they had and the splitting of the fan base for adventures and supplements based in one setting or another is a documented part of the financial troubles that TSR had.

Hex08: I didn't read anything about the financial troubles, so let me jump in.


Please, you did the same thing in your other reply to me - you didn't follow the discussion that was happening and it lead you to an incorrect conclusion. Please be careful about your replies - when you leap in without knowing the history and assume it doesn't exist, your comments can come across foolishly.

 

[ECMO3]

Based on the numbers Ben Riggs shared a while back, just about everything other than the core books sold way less all the time.

100,000 magazines is one thing, but that pales in comparison to D&D Beyond user numbers that are over 10 million. 5E is way way bugger than 1E or Basic were, combined.

To be clear what I originally said was "1E is the only version that was more popular than 5E is (at least in print sales)."

I do not believe for a second that WOTC has sold more 5E material in print than AD&D 1E and all the versions of BECMI. I don't think 5E has sold as much printed material as Dragon magazine alone did during 1E.

TSR sold around 3M copies of the various basic sets (not including Expert, Companion or any AD&D stuff) and Dragonlance sold 30M products (to be fair, this includes the novels).

I can believe that more people play 5E than played 1E, but I don't think there are as many sales and I know there are not as many print sales. You mention DND Beyond and most of those 10M probably have access to a ton of books they have not purchased. For example, I know I have access to all the WOTC books on DNDB and most of the 3rd party books and the only electronic books I have purchased are: PHB, SODQ, VGM and OOTA. 3 months ago the only book I had on DNDB was SODQ.

This is before you consider how ubiquitous unauthorized/unlicensed material has become. My son and daughter both play in regular games with their friends and they do not use any purchased material. They use one of the pirate Wiki sites (which will go unmentioned) to build characters, select spells, subclasses etc and use other online resources for monster stat blocks.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I do not believe for a second that WOTC has sold more 5E material in print than AD&D 1E and all the versions of BECMI.

Haven't we gotten pretty definitive sales figures on this issue by now?

 

[Blue]

To be clear what I originally said was "1E is the only version that was more popular than 5E is (at least in print sales)."

I do not believe for a second that WOTC has sold more 5E material in print than AD&D 1E and all the versions of BECMI. I don't think 5E has sold as much printed material as Dragon magazine alone did during 1E.

TSR sold around 3M copies of the various basic sets alone (not including Expert, Companion or any AD&D stuff).

Here's Bookscan, which captures only about 75% of sales, from July 2023. Core 3 and Starter Set are already well over 4M in sales, and this is incomplete and a year out of date.

 

[MGibster]

I don't think 5E has nearly the volume of print copy 1E had (although online sales close this a lot I think). I was around and buying d&d in the 1980s and I know the bookstores and hobby shops certainly had more volume and more varied volume on their shelves than they do today.

In the 80s and into the 90s, the eco system of table top RPGs at game stores seemed a lot more diverse, healthier even. When I walked into Lonestar Comics in 1991, I'd see multiple titles for AD&D, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, GURPS, various Palladium Games, Star Wars, DC Heroes, Marvel Superheros, Space 1889, Nightlife, Warpworld, Battlelords of the 23rd Century, Dark Conspiracy, Tales from the Floating Vagabond, Vampire, etc., etc. My local game store these days has a lot of AD&D and Pathfinder plus a modest selection of a few other games from time-to-time. Nowhere near the diversity we saw in the 80s and 90s.

On the flip side, the internet has given us access to games even if we'd never find it at our local gaming store. So maybe it's a wash?

 

[Zardnaar]

Here's Bookscan, which captures only about 75% of sales, from July 2023. Core 3 and Starter Set are already well over 4M in sales, and this is incomplete and a year out of date.

View attachment 366537

He's not comparing high selling unit sales but overall product.

Dragon and Dungeon had 100k and over 30k every month or two.

Sone of that came after 1E though.

Approximate print rubs for the larger 1E items are known. Very few sold 6 figures.

I think 5E has probably sold more but it could come down to Dragon magazine sales eg when if you consider total units of product sold.

My personal numbers are minimum 5E has sold double or triple 1E PHB and that's probably a conservative number.

I doubt it's sold ten (or 5 times)times the amount.

Bookscan data alone some 5E products have outsold several of the biggest 1E items combined.

Outside the phb there's a big gap to several of the most popular adventures. B2 is an exception but not 1E.

 

[Chaltab]

In the 80s and into the 90s, the eco system of table top RPGs at game stores seemed a lot more diverse, healthier even. When I walked into Lonestar Comics in 1991, I'd see multiple titles for AD&D, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, GURPS, various Palladium Games, Star Wars, DC Heroes, Marvel Superheros, Space 1889, Nightlife, Warpworld, Battlelords of the 23rd Century, Dark Conspiracy, Tales from the Floating Vagabond, Vampire, etc., etc. My local game store these days has a lot of AD&D and Pathfinder plus a modest selection of a few other games from time-to-time. Nowhere near the diversity we saw in the 80s and 90s.

On the flip side, the internet has given us access to games even if we'd never find it at our local gaming store. So maybe it's a wash?

That's another thing where one specific comparison point can't tell the whole story. The entire printing industry has been contracting due to the internet and the cost to publish books has gone up. Back then there was no option because internet access was slow and a lot less ubiquitous, so you either made a print run or you didn't sell a book.

 

[MGibster]

That's another thing where one specific comparison point can't tell the whole story. The entire printing industry has been contracting due to the internet and the cost to publish books has gone up. Back then there was no option because internet access was slow and a lot less ubiquitous, so you either made a print run or you didn't sell a book.

You're right it can't. And of course in the 80s and 90s I might never be able to find an RPG if my local store didn't carry it or couldn't get it through their distributor. But these days if I know a game exists, old or new, I can generally find a copy online. It's much easier for me to purchased Oriental Adventures today than it was in 1990 and a game like Thirsty Sword Lesbians likely wouldn't be on the shelves of many game stores 34 years ago.