D&D (2024) Are single class martials still going to be viable in 2024?

[ECMO3]

The unarmed strike is not a weapon.

When the DM gives you a +1 weapon, You cannot use it with your bonus action unarmed strike.

No you use the magic weapon with your action, the exact same way a single class fighter uses that exact same weapon and better than a single class Monk uses that exact same weapon (because of mastery) and then you get your unarmed strike on tip of this.

If the DM gives by 6th level PC a magic greatsword; If he is a single class fighter he swing the greatsword twice. If he is a Fighter 5/Monk 1 he will swing the greatsword twice and make a bonus action unarmed strike. Both of them swing the greatsword the exact same number of times, getting whatever weapon mastery properties come with it. The PC with a Monk dip just makes an extra unarmed strike on top of that as a bonus action.

If the DM gives my 6th level PC a magic hand axe; The single class Monk will swing his magic hand axe twice and make an unarmed strike. The Monk5/Fighter 1 will swing the magic hand axe twice (getting mastery benefits), then he will swing his Nick Scimitar once, then he will make an unarmed attack as a bonus action.

 

[Vael]

Multiclassing before level 3 ... delays subclass choice, not a fan.
Multiclassing before level 4 ... delays feat and an improvement to an ability score ... still not a fan.
Multiclassing before level 5 with a martial class ... delays Extra Attack, Really not a fan.

Look, if this was for a one-shot at level 4, maybe I'd be all in on dipping. And I'll admit, I mainly play casters and don't care too much for multiclassing. But given the number of things that still scale by class level and feat progression, there's still plenty to stay with one class.

 

[Corinnguard]

If you want to make the single class martials viable in 2024, why not convert the combat maneuvers from 3e's Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords to 5e? Convert them and make it so that each martial class was proficient in 2 to 3 of that book's different combat styles. This way, you don't have to do any kind of multiclassing just to keep them viable and up to par with the spellcasting classes. As isn't this what you are worried about after all? The martial-spellcaster gap that currently exists in 5e?

 

[Daztur]

If you want to make the single class martials viable in 2024, why not convert the combat maneuvers from 3e's Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords to 5e? Convert them and make it so that each martial class was proficient in 2 to 3 of that book's different combat styles. This way, you don't have to do any kind of multiclassing just to keep them viable and up to par with the spellcasting classes. As isn't this what you are worried about after all? The martial-spellcaster gap that currently exists in 5e?

That...would take a lot of work. 3.5e is built on pretty different logic. Not saying it couldn't be done but that would be a LOT of time invested.

 

[Corinnguard]

That...would take a lot of work. 3.5e is built on pretty different logic. Not saying it couldn't be done but that would be a LOT of time invested.

It would be worth the effort, wouldn't it?

 

[ECMO3]

Fighter W twohanded heavy weapon
DPR: 11 lvl 1-3 str 17 two-handed weapon style
DPR: 21 lvl 4 str 18 two-handed weapon style, GWM assuming bonus action attack every other round
DPR: 35 lvl 5 str 18 two-handed weapon style, GWM assuming bonus action attack every other round

Fighter with a 1-level Monk Dip:
DPR 11 level 1 Str 17 two-handed weapon style
DPR: 17.5 level 2-4 Str 17 two-handed weapon style plus unarmed strike
DPR: 27 level 5 Str 18 two-handed weapon style (GWM assuming bonus action attack every other round and unarmed strike every other round)
DPR: 39 level 6 Str 18 two-handed weapon fighting style (GWM assuming bonus action attack every other round and unarmed strike every other round)
DPR: 42 level 7 Str 20 two-handed weapon fighting style (GWM assuming bonus action attack every other round and unarmed strike every other round)

So the multiclass is:
level 1: same (single class fighter)
level 2-3: 6.5 more (does not include action surge)
level 4: 3.5 less
level 5: 8 less
level 6: 1 more
level 7: 4 more

This is using GWM, but GWM is not going to be an optimal melee build any more except possibly at very high levels. Vex-Nick combo with light weapons will be in terms of DPR at most levels.

 

[mellored]

However in addition to Nick, the Monk also gets weapon mastery in the light weapon that is not Nick, meaning the multiclass is ahead even on the rounds where the 2nd level Monk would use FOB.

Fair.
Though it needs to be a light weapon, and so probably Vex.
And it isn't useable with flurry of blows.
So call it advantage on 1 attack after level 5.

Though level 2 monk also gets +10 speed.

No he is not, he will be ahead the whole game.

They will always be 1 flurry of blows / stunning strike behind. Which is better than advantage on that 1 attack for that round, worse on others.

At level 3, Deflect attacks is much better than an additional weapon mastery.

At level 4, +1 Dex (assuming 17-> 18) is a better than an another mastery.

At level 5, multiattack and stunning stike is way better than an extra mastery.

At level 6, ... hard to judge.

At level 7, Evasion is better than a mastery.

At level 8, +2 Dex is better than mastery.

At level 9, mastery is probably better.

At level 10, Heightened discipline is way better than mastery. Plus another 5'.

So straight monk is looking better at most levels. IMO.

I don't know that 15 will be the requirement for heavy armor,

Armor hasn't changed. So you need either some Str or some Dex.

but even if it is, the investment for a 15 and maxing strength is significant and more so when you consider the Paladin aslo uses Charisma for his aura and spells.

For paladins. Yea. A hexblade dip is still good, but less so than 2014. It depends on which feats your taking.

17 Str Polearm Master + Great Weapon Master + Charger = 20 Str. No need for Cha.

Or again, Magic Initate (Shillelagh) lets you attack with Cha 1 handed.

You can get better Feats, bump Charisma and not lose any damage.

Weapon feats don't bump Charisma. They bump Str or Dex.

Now if your doing sword and board with Inspiring Leader, Resilient (Con), Defensive Dualist. The sure. You can dump Str, stick with medium armor, and dip hexblade.

On point buy: Start with a 14S, 17Charisma

Then take GWM at level 5 (boosting strength to get your plate) and then get a Charisma feat to do more damage than you would with PAM while also having a higher Constitution.

You're not doing more damage compared to starting 17 Str and 14 Cha.

You are improving your save aura though.

You actually get GWM three levels earlier (level 5) because you would not even get PAM (your martial arts attack does more damage than your PAM bonus).

So the paladin is dipping both monk and warlock?

Then you don't have GWM or multi-attack at level 5.

Note, GWM doesn't work on bonus attacks. PAM or monks.

Also PAM works great in a white room, but in play it ties you to a few weapons.

Push + reaction attack is a great combo, available on Glaives.

Everyone I have seen play PAM has eventually switched to a staff or something that did not work with it at all, because there are not many really good magic Glaives or Halberds in most campaigns.

i always run home brew campaigns, and rarely gave our magic items.

If you want to use it in play you are probably going to eventually switch to a staff because there are not many weapons that work with it besides staff.

Staffs work with Shillelagh.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I don't see any benefit of the fighter using Cha over Str.

And you need Str to use Heavy weapons, even with Hexblade.

At least on this, the new Pact of the Blade is as the OP says. I have a Warlock with that pact and can use a summoned great sword as my pact weapon. It's really quite nice, though I have to be careful because I'm squishier than our Fighter or Barbarian.

Hexblade only applied to one weapon, which was a substantial limitation in play. The new POB applies to all weapons.

Do you have a screengrab or cite for that? Because what I'm seeing doesn't say that. It still only applies to one bonded weapon.

The extra attack from a Monk is an entire other attack. Does 1d6 +strength or dex and can be used without even using the attack action.

Okay? I don't see how this is somehow an insanely powerful option. It has its uses. It isn't suddenly the end of the world for single-classed martial characters.

I am not complaining. I think this is awesome.

Okay. I think you're still massively over-valuing things.

Ok it is not a complaint, I love it.

Alright. It doesn't come across that way, what with the question about whether single-class characters are "still viable" or not.

A dip before required more levels to get really good things except for Cleric dips that could get heavy Armor at level 1.

I still think it requires more levels to get really good things. Blade Pact being level 1 is no different from Hexblade being level 1, except that you can change your bonded weapon as a Bonus action, rather than once a day in the morning. The Bonus action cost still means it would be inferior to just making an attack or doing some other thing during your turn.

There was nothing the equivalent of weapon masteries or martial arts on a 1-level dip.

Yesss...and Weapon Masteries are a power-up for pure martial characters. That's the whole point. You're acting like these things are somehow a punishment for single-class characters when they emphatically are not.

Getting a martial arts attack in addition to a nick attack is a power up for those martial classes.

And something you had to dip for, which weakens and delays various features. You are ignoring all the costs and focusing solely on the benefits.

Getting a nick attack in addition to a martial arts attack is a power up for a Monk.

Except that you had to delay ki, the critical resource you desperately need, amongst other things. It isn't nearly as amazing as you make it sound. It is useful, yes. It is not suddenly making single-class Monks non-"viable."

 

[ECMO3]

Armor hasn't changed. So you need either some Str or some Dex.

For paladins. Yea. A hexblade dip is still good, but less so than 2014. It depends on which feats your taking.

You would not go Hexblade, you can't go Hexblade on a 1-level dip because subclass does not come online until level 3 and Hexblade is a pretty weak subclass now even if you go to level 3. You would go pact of the blade on your 1 level no-subclass Warlock dip and get Charisma on all weapons, not just Shillelagh and not just your one pact weapon.

This is much stronger than a 2014 Warlock dip.

Weapon feats don't bump Charisma. They bump Str or Dex.

No but you are a Paladin, you have spells and there are better feats to take.

So the paladin is dipping both monk and warlock?

No I don't think a Paladin is going to dip Monk unless he has crazy high rolls. I think Fighters and Rangers will dip Monk.

 

[Clint_L]

Looking at what we know of the new rules I think you are going to really be nerfed if you take a single class Paladin, Ranger, Monk or Fighter compared to what you can do with a dip.

On a Paladin I think you are going to always want 1 Warlock level.

On a Fighter you are going to want 1 Warlock level to let you attack with Charisma or 1 Monk level to make bonus action unarmed strikes.

On a Monk you are going to want a level of Fighter or Ranger for Nick.

On a Ranger you are going to want 1 Monk level for bonus action unarmed strikes.

Multiclassing has always provided an edge, but now the boons you get with a one level dip make the difference between a dipped and non-dipped character pretty big. I don't see single class martials being competitive with these dips at most levels.

Yeah, we have been using them. They are absolutely viable. Excellent, even.

What you define as viable and what 99.9% of players define as viable are not the same thing. You are the most hardcore of optimizers. I think you define "viable" as "optimal DPR in a white room scenario."

My level 11 mercy monk is borderline broken, let alone viable. Would one level of fighter to get nick have increased her DPR slightly? I doubt it, but maybe. Not worth what she'd be losing/delaying.