D&D 5E Should the Paladin be changed into a more generic half-caster magic knight?

[nevin]

The more generic you make anything the more bland and boring and the more fluff and junk will be created for the class. Wizard ? anyone. Then we'll see entire splat books full of "oaths" and abilities that will eventually become a list of the 5 abilities all "paladins" have to have to be optimized.

I think Oaths as a pact mechanism would be a great add-on feature for any class but I think you'll see the paladin played less and less if you keep trying to turn it into a generic "cool kid's" class. I never really called it a pact or an Oath but I used to make all characters that made deals with powerful outerplanar's abide by certain rules as applied by the outerplanar. My favorite being the evil rogue who was told by hell to keep the paladin alive because he was fighting the goals of a demon lord they didn't know about. Oh the fun of that shocked face as the rogue got his power and had his murder of the paladin jerked out from underneath him. "if the paladin dies you die" and oh yeah here's your devilish abilities.....LOL . Fun times.

I personally like the idea that Paladins are something special tied in a special way to the domain of lawful Good who simply work better together, and that other powers are always trying to come up with an answer to them.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Our Oath of the Ancients Paladin is far from lawful. He's not really chaotic but he definitely works more on instinct than according to a strict code.

 

[nevin]

I just stated what I thought was the best place for a paladin. Not the current place for a paladin.

 

[Xeviat]

I personally don't like flavorless classes. I like classes to mean something in the world and not just be a collection of abilities. One of the main D&D designers mentioned classes needing to be able to have 10 subclasses before considering them for class status, and that really rubbed off on me.

The Wielder for A5E is a great concept for a magic warrior (but I'm biased as I helped conceptualize it); it can be found in MOAR Complete. The Wielder is meant to fill the role of the warrior whose power comes from the magic weapon they wield (like He-Man and She-Ra).

Oath of the Crown works as a more generic knight. A Knight could be a Fighter subclass too, representing the noble, honorable warrior without the supernatural trappings.

 

[jayoungr]

Can't you just refluff the paladin's abilities?

 

[mellored]

Artificer is the half-arcane class.

 

[Xeviat]

Artificer is the half-arcane class.

It's a half-arcane expert, and it's also a magical inventor. I can see wanting something else for an arcane warrior.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

No, the paladin is great as it is, just add the magic knight class independently.

Yep this is what I'd prefer. As much as I'm desperate for a proper arcane gish class, I don't want to see paladin sabotaged to make that happen.

 

[Mind of tempest]

With 5E, the Paladin's fluff changed to be less reliant on a deity and more reliant on an oath. Conviction in said oath unlocks all kinds of supernatural powers for the Paladin; essentially, their Charisma -- their Force of Will -- enables them to create miracles, smite enemies of their oath, heal the sick, and so on.

But what if the Paladin embraced this generic oath idea more? An oath doesn't have to be divine magic, and the Paladins IRL aren't that far apart from the Knights of the Round. In this way, perhaps "Lay on Hands" could be turned into one of a few potential options the Paladin picks, and their choice of subclass has a greater impact on their spell list. A Paladin in service of a lich would essentially be a Death Knight, and have more necromancy spells; a Paladin in service to an Archmage is your more generic spellblade. The best part is that by giving Smite a customizable damage type, you could easily flex the Paladin's flavor any number of ways. And of course you can still have a Paladin who serves gods or whatever.

Anyway, this is just a little idea, not one I'm sure I'll pursue as I enjoy my own Pendragon class, but the Paladin-as-Magic Knight could potentially better address the many varied tastes D&D players are meant to have.

no we should just have more types of half caster and accept paladin as a limited options class like druid or wizard

I would rather have a Paladin be the Paladiniest Paladin to ever Paladin and then a separate class for Death Knight; but since WOTC designers and a big chunk of the playerbase seems allergic to new classes, I am definitely open to seeing how this idea is developed.

define what you mean by a death knight?

Artificer is the half-arcane class.

and it still does not feel right nor like what we want.

artificer could be a full caster and nothing breaks in its concept a full caster paladin loses the knight

 

[Frozen_Heart]

It's a half-arcane expert, and it's also a magical inventor. I can see wanting something else for an arcane warrior.

Honestly I could see artificer pulling it off if the class wasn't basically abandoned. Its subclasses are perhaps the most impactful in the game, and each almost feels like a different class.

An artificer which crafts a magical weapon, and then has a series of 'strikes' as its signature ability (like the arcane archer shots), would feel more like a proper swordmage than anything currently in game.