D&D (2024) D&D 2024 Rules Oddities (Kibbles’ Collected Complaints)

Regarding grappling and dragging.
In my group we have always played is so that the grappled target moves into the space vacated by the grappler. That reduced a lot of the shenanigans mentioned above.
I am not close to my 2014 rulebooks now and I haven't gotten the 2024 yet so I am not sure what the wording is and whether it is our added house rule or just our interpretation of what is written.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

It can easily scale to completely out of control numbers if you combine it with haste and boots of speed. By level 11, over 500 damage per round is easily attainable with spike growth grappling

edit: The crazy high numbers come online much earlier than level 11, I just picked that number to compare to your post above
2014 Bard with a horse could do 500, with +12+1d6 to the grapple check.
And the druid can be a horse.
And the bard could have Sentinel and Mounted Combat.
 

Regarding grappling and dragging.
In my group we have always played is so that the grappled target moves into the space vacated by the grappler. That reduced a lot of the shenanigans mentioned above.
I am not close to my 2014 rulebooks now and I haven't gotten the 2024 yet so I am not sure what the wording is and whether it is our added house rule or just our interpretation of what is written.
2014 lets you "drag or carry".

Which you could certainly interpret as "the space you left or the space your in".

I don't see why you couldn't play 2024 the same.

I'll drag my players though some spiked growth first, then ask what rule they prefer.
 

2014 lets you "drag or carry".

Which you could certainly interpret as "the space you left or the space your in".

I don't see why you couldn't play 2024 the same.

I'll drag my players though some spiked growth first, then ask what rule they prefer.
With drag I see it as they follow you, that is move into your previous space.
If you carry then they should be in your space, you can then drop them in any adjacent space with free item interaction.

Different tables different interpretations...
 


No matter how many times you lather and repeat, 20 people won't find the errors that 50 people will. And 50 people won't find the errors that 100 people will. And when you release a product to tens of thousands of people.... A new error will always pop up.
I thought they had public playtests with thousands of people, with some of these exact issues already pointed out during the playtests…

So no, I do not buy the ‘WotC only has 5 people working on the books, they cannot do any better’. Maybe fire fewer people if you cannot get it done by who is left
 

Is it that OP, though? It's using the action economy of two players coordinating their turns to do a lot of damage...but I'm looking at those numbers and not seeing a huge spike. My level 11 monk's base damage is, off the top of my head, around 60 DPR by herself. And there's nothing stopping another mob from grabbing my monk and dragging her through those same spikes. At tier 4, 48d4 is 120DPR. My monk, with her current equipment, will have a DPR of about 100 at level 20. So...not that big a difference, and it's only using one character's action economy instead of two, without making her vulnerable.

I mean, I love it, and would probably do it just for the larfs. Especially as we have a druid in the party. But I don't think that particular example is broken. I'm more worried about some of the automatic effects that have been added.

Edit: also, depending on terrain, it's probably more fun to just grapple the target, run up a really high wall or tower with them, and jump off.

Good points. In addition I'll just remind my players that whatever they can do, the enemy can also do. When it comes to using the spike growth scrubbing routine I frequently have more monsters than PCs so have fun. Odds are we'll come up with some kind of compromise kind of like how we both limit use of counterspell or I'll have fun shredding PCs.
 

I guess we draw the line for ‘good enough’ in different places. Being clear and free of exploits is more the minimum requirement, anything else then determines whether it is mediocre, decent, good or great.
Free of exploits? Well you’re asking to be disappointed. You can set whatever unreasonable bar you want to for a publishing company.

Millions of people are going to happily play the game without needing to stress about the confluence of a rule and a single spell (out of hundreds of spells) and the couple of hundred to whom this seems to be a personal insult can carry on talking on EnWorld about how nobody understands D&D but them.
 
Last edited:


I don't demand perfection from the rules (and god knows I've yet to write perfection so it would be hypocritical of me to ask it), but I think that is just no reason to have these mistakes. All of the things they were trying to do, like making it so you can draw and throw a bunch of javelins or daggers could have been done without breaking other things if they'd been more careful.

It would have taken more playtesting and editing, but the budget on that is trivial compared to the budget they spent on art or god knows what else. They could have gotten it for free if they just had not insisted on playing their cards close to their chest and actually used UA... and then actually read the comments for the UA instead of just looking at the total votes.

I don't think think the rules should be written for optimizers, but I don't think making them optimization proof has any cost besides straight up quality control. Most of the more problematic things were almost certainly not intentional changes, they were just makes.

There is just no benefit to me, as a player that doesn't want to exploit the rules, as a DM that doesn't want the rules exploited, or a homebrewer trying to write content for the game, in the rules being sloppy, and there's no good reason for them to be sloppy when are talking about a book that will probably sell a million copies and had a massive budget behind it.

The only ways I can see it ending up there are that they did not care, they ran out of time, or they don't understand the crunchy interactions of the rules. I would bet on them running out of time... but that's not a great place to be for was supposed to be the clean up edition of the rules that was going to be the last edition of D&D we'd ever need. Maybe that's not something you rush out the door unfinished.

I fully appreciate that many of the mistakes don't matter to many people. The same is true for 5e 2014. I don't really care that Conjure Animals is broken, because I just banned it and moved on with my life long ago. But it's also fair to say that if they are expecting people to upgrade from 5e 2014 to D&D 2024, it should probably strive to not have the same argument applied to it (that the DM can fix the jank).

And I really think people overstating how much of the problems are 'exploiting' the rules. Giant Insect reducing a creatures speed to 0 with no save or size limit and stopping everything from ghosts to dragons in place... and 70 hit points (more than double what it is supposed to have)... none of that is an exploit, it's just literally casting the spell as someone reading it would think it works. Sure, at least some of that might get errata'd but the book is already printed, and that's the version that will be in a lot of people's books. If they'd published that spell and actually listened to public comment, this would have been noticed immediately.

I don't think public feedback is good for finding the direction of the game, but it is extremely good at identifying the rough edges and sanding them down (as someone with a decent amount of public feedback on my content over the years... I can attest to that!); its a sandblaster that will tell you all the ways your rules fail and smooths things out. Too much can render your content boring and unoriginal, but too little can leave in obvious mistakes, exploits, and unintended combinations of rules. And these rules good have used a solid sandblasting.
I think you're 100% right, but the one difference between smaller creators like me or you is that we don't have Hasbro up our ass trying to shake us for more profits because our Toy Divisions are failing.

Ultimately, running out of time is IMO what happened, and they only ran out of time because Hasbro would enforce deadlines to make promises to their shareholders. Putting out a product when you say you will is a very big thing for investors of all stripes, but the end result is that corners are always cut and the product is never quite what it COULD have been.

It's good that you pointed out the mistakes in the rules. You saved other creators like myself a lot of time. But we also have to be honest about the reality that the game exists in is outside of quality and very much firmly a part of the "how do we make money off of this reality?" regardless of what the game's actual designers want.
 

Remove ads

Top