D&D General Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast the First Magic Missile: Why Gygax Still Matters to Me

[Micah Sweet]

Again, who cares how much money other games make?

And those other games will never make more than ripples on an ocean, because D&D is always king. Even when PF1e was riding high...PF1e was D&D too. And just as much trapped in those "traditions," including some that only came into existence with 3.x specifically (like screwing over Fighters for skills, one of the few sacred cows 4e didn't kill and absolutely 100% should have.)

 

[Micah Sweet]

You misunderstand me. I don't necessarily want not-medieval.

I want something that is not, as I said, faux-medieval pseudo-Tolkienesque schizotech humanocentric Dung Ages settings with Maximized Fantasy Racism. Because that's what we get. Every. Goddamn. Time. And it is so tiring.

"Medieval" also includes the Islamic Golden Age. "Medieval" also includes feudal Japan, and the Eastern Roman Empire, and Imperial China, and the empire of Angkor, and the Sultanates of India. Stretch the boundaries just a little and you can get early Renaissance or late Antiquity. There's so much more we COULD do, just even in that one particular slice of history--but it never happens.

Same response as always: look for something that does what you want, or make it yourself. No other option is viable.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yes but therein lies the problem. Gygax wasn’t always above board with his statements.

Gygax wrote and spoke at volume (and with as many syllables as possible) for quite some time; if you look long enough, you will always find that he wrote something that contradicted what he said earlier, sometimes within the same paragraph.

Do the words of the Mighty Gygax contradict themselves? Very well then, they are in contradiction. (For High Gygaxian is verbose, and contain multitudes.)

 

[MGibster]

It was originally a pagan ritual (hence tinsel and candles/lights), with the tree having various symbolic meanings. Immortality/life beyond death (because it is evergreen, despite the winter), sacred pillar, possible links to the World Tree, to Odin sacrificing himself to himself by hanging himself from said World Tree, etc.

I did actually know that. The real reason I put up a tree is because Queen Victoria made it fashionable and it just wouldn't feel like Christmas without it.

The community at large.

You say there are plenty of other games. I literally cannot find people to play them.

I kind of see this as a separate issue though. I too have felt the bitter sting of not being able to find enough people willing to play other games. It's tough, but I've come to terms with the simple truth that I will probably never play or run a Pendragon campaign.

 

[Bedrockgames]

"Medieval" also includes the Islamic Golden Age. "Medieval" also includes feudal Japan, and the Eastern Roman Empire, and Imperial China, and the empire of Angkor, and the Sultanates of India. Stretch the boundaries just a little and you can get early Renaissance or late Antiquity. There's so much more we COULD do, just even in that one particular slice of history--but it never happens.

All you have to do to make this happen is make a campaign based on one of those things. There is also a growing number of options available, even for d20 based games, exploring this stuff. And if you are willing to go outside D&D this stuff is everywhere now

 

[Scribe]

You misunderstand me. I don't necessarily want not-medieval.

...

"Medieval" also includes the Islamic Golden Age. "Medieval" also includes feudal Japan, and the Eastern Roman Empire, and Imperial China, and the empire of Angkor, and the Sultanates of India. Stretch the boundaries just a little and you can get early Renaissance or late Antiquity. There's so much more we COULD do, just even in that one particular slice of history--but it never happens.

Then make your own setting? D&D is a thing, and it's not this.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Then make your own setting? D&D is a thing, and it's not this.

Agreed. I do not support the idea that existing things need to be twisted and manipulated to suit my current needs. That's what new things are for!

 

[Bedrockgames]

Then make your own setting? D&D is a thing, and it's not this.

I don't think what he wants is outside D&D. It just isn't baseline PHB D&D. You don't even need two make your own setting in most cases, there is a lot of third party stuff for 5E and there is a lot of d20 material out there. Plus there is pathfinder (I haven't looked at it yet but something like the Tian Xia book likely could have the sort of thing being sought here).

I will say having run a lot of stuff based roughly on Song Dynasty China, it is very workable as a setting. In many ways China, and in particular, the wuxia genre, is more suited to the kinds of things people like to do in D&D than Medieval Europe. Just as a quick example the role of inns in wuxia is a lot closer to how parties in D&D use them. And song china has pretty advanced institutions, so there are restaurants and such, but there is also plenty of stuff outside imperial control that you have things to explore

 

[TiQuinn]

Gygax wrote and spoke at volume (and with as many syllables as possible) for quite some time; if you look long enough, you will always find that he wrote something that contradicted what he said earlier, sometimes within the same paragraph.

Do the words of the Mighty Gygax contradict themselves? Very well then, they are in contradiction. (For High Gygaxian is verbose, and contain multitudes.)

The superior DM will not be dismayed by such apparent discrepancies, but embrace them as they must keep meddlesome players upon tenterhooks throughout the course of a proper campaign!

 

[Mannahnin]

I really do need to finish reading The Elusive Shift. Somewhere in that transition, I think, Gary got lost. I don't think he was superannuated by the rise of narrative roleplaying. I think he got trapped in the DM vs player mentality. Perhaps he simply sat at the table with too many people that were gung-ho to beat Gary Gygax at his own game. I can only imagine the awful things fame does to someone. So much of what he said or wrote seems to vascillate between brilliant nuggets of TTRPG theory and just seemingly malicious truculence.

The Elusive Shift is excellent, but it's more about the formation and evolution of the concept of a role playing game, and its discussion in the gaming community in the 70s and early 80s.

For more on Gary and what happened to him, I recommend Game Wizards and particularly the recently-completed 14 episode podcast When We Were Wizards.

He seemed to grow more and more obsessed with his income and status and efforts to turn D&D into a licensed media property, with movies and TV shows which could finance a lavish lifestyle for himself and his family and hangers-on.* And less and less interested in writing and creating game materials, or supporting, leading, and managing the creative folks back at TSR. Who were laboring long hours for little pay under the mismanagement of the Blumes, because Gary didn't want to be bothered managing and leading. Somewhat in his defense, he was clearly also belabored and demoralized a bit by, over the years, the death of Don Kaye, the lawsuits with Dave Arneson, his internal conflicts with the Blumes, the death of his mother in 1980, and the pressures of leading TSR when he clearly didn't know how to run a company but was determined to look like an autodidact genius and Great Man.

*(As well as his personal royalties for every book he could put his name on, and his sense that he owned D&D regardless of what any contracts said, and was entitled to every dollar he could possibly get out of it, no matter what).