D&D (2024) I have the DMG. AMA!

[Vaalingrade]

Instead, the punishment appears to be the point.

It certainly used to be. The idea was that these actions were teaching the player to play their character correctly with the assumption that these punishments were a balance on more powerful class abilities that... were never all that powerful.

And there was punishment for non religi-bois. That's why there were so many anti-magic fields and things that destroyed the magic items that were the fighter's powers, and the wizard's spellbook could be stolen and the rogue had entire creature types they might as well stay home for.

 

[Vaalingrade]

But what if the (so-called) pope is really an anti-pope, and the Vatican really a den of vice? Maybe the character in question is the one giving effect to the divine will!

Thanks to the ill-thought out rules of clerics and alignment, it's impossible for the pope to actually be the anti-pope unless his god and literally every other cleric is also secretly evil.

 

[mamba]

But what if the (so-called) pope is really an anti-pope, and the Vatican really a den of vice? Maybe the character in question is the one giving effect to the divine will!

I used a scenario that is easy to follow, that does not mean it is the only possible one.

If the cleric served a different god (not the pope’s) they could keep their powers (assuming the action aligns roughly with their god’s wishes / goals).

If the cleric deals divine justice in the name of the pope’s god, they would also keep their power. Guess they will know for sure where they stand after the fact

 

[Greg K]

Silver Surfer.

Herald of Galactus.

Galactus imbues him with power. Silver Surfer realizes "Hey, eating planets is wrong" and ends up fighting him.

A few points regarding the Silver Surfer and Galactus
1. We know Galactus can strip a Herald of their powers. He normally does not, because he has soft spot for his Heralds. However, he stripped Morg of the Power Cosmic after Morg killed Frankie Raye, the herald known as Nova (as opposed to Richard Rider Nova).
2. Silver Surfer is not completely opposed to Galactus . There have still been times Silver Surfer sided with Galactus and Galactus still sees a use for him.
3. Galactus does not see Silver Surfer as any type of threat.

 

[TiQuinn]

It certainly used to be. The idea was that these actions were teaching the player to play their character correctly with the assumption that these punishments were a balance on more powerful class abilities that... were never all that powerful.

And there was punishment for non religi-bois. That's why there were so many anti-magic fields and things that destroyed the magic items that were the fighter's powers, and the wizard's spellbook could be stolen and the rogue had entire creature types they might as well stay home for.

Right, there used to be an entire ecosystem around these ideas, but now people are picking and choosing what to bring forward into the new editions of the game. Stripping class abilities is a holdover from 1e/2e days, and it's time to put that to rest.

 

[TiQuinn]

A few points regarding the Silver Surfer and Galactus
1. We know Galactus can strip a Herald of their powers. He normally does not, because he has soft spot for his Heralds. However, he stripped Morg of the Power Cosmic after Morg killed Frankie Raye, the herald known as Nova (as opposed to Richard Rider Nova).
2. Silver Surfer is not completely opposed to Galactus . There have still been times Silver Surfer sided with Galactus and Galactus still sees a use for him.
3. Galactus does not see Silver Surfer as any type of threat.

It's not really about Silver Surfer and Galactus. Like, it really isn't about that.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Right, there used to be an entire ecosystem around these ideas, but now people are picking and choosing what to bring forward into the new editions of the game. Stripping class abilities is a holdover from 1e/2e days, and it's time to put that to rest.

You are correct!

But some are easier to come up with justifications for even if they just eviscerate common tropes and storytelling avenues to maintain them.

 

[Greg K]

It's not really about Silver Surfer and Galactus. Like, it really isn't about that.

If you are going to use Silver Surfer turning his back on Galactus and keeping his power as an example of an entity not stripping a character to whom he/she/it previously granted power after that character turned their back on the entity, the ability of Galactus to strip the Surfer of said power and why he does not is relevant to the discussion.

 

[pemerton]

Thanks to the ill-thought out rules of clerics and alignment, it's impossible for the pope to actually be the anti-pope unless his god and literally every other cleric is also secretly evil.

You've reminded me of one of my favourite discussions of GMing techniques from Paul Czege:

I frame the character into the middle of conflicts I think will push and pull in ways that are interesting to me and to the player. I keep NPC personalities somewhat unfixed in my mind, allowing me to retroactively justify their behaviors in support of this.​

So the moral status and true convictions of the pope-who-is-possibly-an-anti-pope can be kept unfixed/ambiguous initially, and allowed to unfold in a way that supports the play.

It's true that alignment detection and mind-reading can wreck this, but 5e D&D doesn't have the former, I believe; and if you're in a context where you can apply Detect Thoughts to the (anti-)pope maybe that's the time for the GM to bring things to a crisis?

If the cleric deals divine justice in the name of the pope’s god, they would also keep their power. Guess they will know for sure where they stand after the fact

See above in this post: there are ways to handle this sort of thing that don't rely on the GM just telling the player "after the fact".

 

[mamba]

See above in this post: there are ways to handle this sort of thing that don't rely on the GM just telling the player "after the fact".

I did not mean to imply that this is the only way the character can find out, only that by then they know for sure.

If the character did this without being sure beforehand, the player is an idiot, sorry