When Do the 5E “Ride or Die” Folks Become Grogs Like The Rest of Us in “D&D Older Editions” And When Do We Get D&D 5E Flair for Posts?

[PHATsakk43]

Race as class was introduced with the Moldvay Basic set in 1981, two years after the third AD&D core book came out.

Kinda sorta not really though.

OD&D technically had race and class, but only one class for each non-human race. The demihumans also had hit dice that were distinct from the human equivalent, in say the halfling. So that sort of deviates from the class being the driver for HD in the “normal” D&D editions starting with AD&D 1E and continuing until now.

The World of Greyhawk expanded the OD&D class and race scope somewhat, but IMO, Moldvay just codified what was the de facto rule in OD&D.

Also, IIRC, Holmes Basic likewise wasn’t explicit about it, but it followed the rules from the LBB and didn’t incorporate The World of Greyhawk stuff, except for adding in Thieves (I think, this is all from before I was born and definitely before I played.)

I suppose that regardless of if it’s “race as class” or “race and class” going to “race as cosmetic as you’re character’s name and gender” is still completely different from anything in the past 50 years of the game.

I totally understand why it’s happening and I’m not interested in delving into the RW specifics, I’m just saying that it’s a major change to the flavor of the game.

Let’s face it, there is a ton of legacy kludge in the game that exists basically just for flavor, like attack rolls using a D20, six stats that have never meaningfully changed, an effectively useless alignment system, etc. that are just the things that stick around as the editions have came and gone that really just exist to create a “D&Dness” to whatever we’re playing.

TSR followed Gary’s lead in attempting to relegate non-humans to a lesser role in the game even after he left. The one thing that I feel that pretty much most people (I’m sure that there is someone out there that would love to argue about this, but I’ve yet to meet this person) have agreed with from the WotC takeover was completely eliminating that aspect of the game.

 

[Lidgar]

I'll just leave this here for posterity.

Edition Wars

 

[Greg K]

I'm sure every table and DM will handle it differently. For me, they're one edition, I couldn't care less which PHB (or both) you pick your options from. I mean, if you're picking from the PHB, you're already ignoring a bunch of superior 3pp material anyway.

lol. possibly. However, Level Up, Tales of the Valiant, and DC20 might have a few things worth stealing, but most of the stuff including the classes I have seen do not work for me. Neither do many other changes and additions (even ideas that I like, I often do not like the implementation).
Sterling Vermin has a couple of classes worth stealing as does Mage Hand Press. Mage Hand Press also has several subclasses on their website I like.
As for other third party material, there are some great classes, imo, such as Walrock Homebrew's Witch Class and Taron Pound's Alchemist class. There are also other great, imo, alternate rules, subclasse and additions, some freely available, at Drivethrurpg, DMsGuild, and elsewhere on the web that I find worth incorporating.

 

[TwoSix]

lol. possibly. However, Level Up, Tales of the Valiant, and DC20 might have a few things worth stealing, but most of the stuff including the classes I have seen do not work for me. Neither do many other changes and additions (even ideas that I like, I often do not like the implementation).
Sterling Vermin has a couple of classes worth stealing as does Mage Hand Press. Mage Hand Press also has several subclasses on their website I like.
As for other third party material, there are some great classes, imo, such as Walrock Homebrew's Witch Class and Taron Pound's Alchemist class. There are also other great, imo, alternate rules, subclasse and additions, some freely available, at Drivethrurpg, DMsGuild, and elsewhere on the web that I find worth incorporating.

Kibblestasty, Laserllama, and Mage Hand Press are my triumvirate of go-to 3pp sources. My preference would be for classes from those 3 sources, and only use PHB classes if the player wanted to use a subclass that didn't play nice with one of the alternate versions.

 

[Mannahnin]

Kinda sorta not really though.

OD&D technically had race and class, but only one class for each non-human race. The demihumans also had hit dice that were distinct from the human equivalent, in say the halfling. So that sort of deviates from the class being the driver for HD in the “normal” D&D editions starting with AD&D 1E and continuing until now.

The World of Greyhawk expanded the OD&D class and race scope somewhat, but IMO, Moldvay just codified what was the de facto rule in OD&D.

Also, IIRC, Holmes Basic likewise wasn’t explicit about it, but it followed the rules from the LBB and didn’t incorporate The World of Greyhawk stuff, except for adding in Thieves (I think, this is all from before I was born and definitely before I played.)

I suppose that regardless of if it’s “race as class” or “race and class” going to “race as cosmetic as you’re character’s name and gender” is still completely different from anything in the past 50 years of the game.

Nah, not really. In 1974 Dwarves, and Halflings didn't have choices, but all had to be the Fighting Man class. Elves got to be either Fighting Men or Magic-Users, and could switch from adventure to adventure IF they wanted. Halflings and Dwarves had the exact same HD as any other Fighter, but got to save as if 4 levels higher. As opposed to B/X where they became their own classes and got their own attack and save charts and so forth.

Supplement I, Greyhawk, in 1975 (as opposed to the World of Greyhawk campaign setting, 1980) introduced more class options for demihumans, with Halflings getting the option to be Fighters or Thieves, Dwarves getting to be Fighter, Thief, or Fighter/Thief multiclass, Elves got the option to be pure F/M-U, triple-classed F/M-U/T, or single classed Thieves. And the new Half Elf race could be a Thief, F/M-U, or, if their Wisdom was at least 13 and they were not Chaotic, triple-classed F/M-U/Clerics.

The wording is definitely less clear in Holmes but race and class were definitely separate things in OD&D.

TSR followed Gary’s lead in attempting to relegate non-humans to a lesser role in the game even after he left. The one thing that I feel that pretty much most people (I’m sure that there is someone out there that would love to argue about this, but I’ve yet to meet this person) have agreed with from the WotC takeover was completely eliminating that aspect of the game.

From my experience (I started playing in '85 but not heavily until 2E), restrictions on Demihumans got less and less over each edition. The ones in 1E are less harsh than in OD&D, the limits were relaxed further and class choices expanded more in Unearthed Arcana, and the level limits in 2E are almost negligible for regular play, the lowest of them being 8th for Halfling Clerics. 9th for Fighters, for Gnome Clerics, and for Half Elf Druids, but all the other demihuman limits are in the double digits, and multiple different optional rules are presented for exceeding those limits.

Certainly a notable change in 3rd ed was the complete (as opposed to de facto) removal of level limits, and the removal of class restrictions by race. But giving humans the same ability to multiclass, and finally giving them racial abilities other than full class selection and (theoretically, but only used in a tiny fraction of campaigns) unlimited level advancement accompanied that. IME demihumans were still clearly dominant in most AD&D games, and you mostly saw humans only for the sake of playing one of the restricted classes. YMMV, of course.

 

[Greg K]

Kibblestasty, Laserllama, and Mage Hand Press are my triumvirate of go-to 3pp sources. My preference would be for classes from those 3 sources, and only use PHB classes if the player wanted to use a subclass that didn't play nice with one of the alternate versions.

Mage Hand Press is my favorite of the three. I do like Kibblestasty's Psion, but I prefer some other third party Witch and Shaman classes to his Occultist (including Mage Hand Press's Witch).
As for Laserllama, I want to like Laserllama's stuff. I respect his (?) design work, but most subclasses don't fit my campaign and, of those that do, I tend to prefer similar third party subclasses from others (e.g. Mage Hand Press)

 

[Corinnguard]

Kibblestasty, Laserllama, and Mage Hand Press are my triumvirate of go-to 3pp sources. My preference would be for classes from those 3 sources, and only use PHB classes if the player wanted to use a subclass that didn't play nice with one of the alternate versions.

Of the three here, Laser Llama's work is my favorite.

 

[TwoSix]

Of the three here, Laser Llama's work is my favorite.

I would be hard pressed to pick a favorite. But I think LL's rebuild of the martial classes to have maneuvers, as well as their warlock, savant, and psion, are absolutely top tier.

 

[Wolfram stout]

I'll just leave this here for posterity.

Edition Wars

Wow, lots of banned users in that thread....heck two band users in the first 3 post. Fun times

 

[Corinnguard]

I would be hard pressed to pick a favorite. But I think LL's rebuild of the martial classes to have maneuvers, as well as their warlock, savant, and psion, are absolutely top tier.

What about LL's rebuild of the Ranger class?