D&D (2024) How do I disarm traps? Does Thieves' Tools do anything?

[UngainlyTitan]

OK. Neither of those things work for me, but I'm glad they work for you! I'll just have to throw this one in the "too hard" basket along with stabilizing a dying person in under 6 seconds!

You do not think there would be a body of folklore about the working of magic in a world of magic? Especially in a place like the Forgotten Realms where everywhere is littered with the flotsam of ancient magical empires?

This bit is not directly addressing you @pukunui but one problem I often see here and elsewhere is than many modern people see magic as something added on to the basic physics of the world. Where as, in my opinion, a world that has magic, magic is as fundamental as gravity, everything in the world would interact in some way with magic.

 

[clearstream]

Second, we have the Tools mechanics:
View attachment 385177
Notice it says a tool "helps" you make a specialized ability check, not it is required to make the check. The implication being having both a skill and tool proficiency would grant advantage (RAW this is the case).

Another implication is that by using Thieves' tools, the DC is set by the use of the tool, not by the difficulty in the lock or trap. This agrees with the description of the Lock under Equipment, that the DC is 15 with the use of Thieves' tools.

That's a good observation and one I want to reflect on... the Utilize wording is forceful. If you are right, a further implication is that text like that in Vecna, Eve of Ruin specifying

This room's only door is padlocked from the outside. As an action, a character with thieves' tools can use them to try to open the lock, doing so with a successful DC 18 Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check.​

is emptied of meaning, as the DC with thieves' tools will always be 15.

I guess it comes down to this: do we ever see an example of Thieves' tools being used without Sleight of Hand in 2024??

You make a good point, noting too the Vecna, Eve of Ruin examples @Remathilis helpfully supplied. Technically, my rules analysis remains correct: every text citing Sleight of Hand thus far is an example of world content and not game system. Leading me to conjecture that the designers, while accustomed to parameterising world content of that sort with Sleight of Hand, for some reason whithheld from adding it to the game system text for the skill. The kind of motive that would result in such a design choice aligns well with your preference: they didn't want to chain picking locks and disarming traps to one skill.

As a secondary thought, if one does read world content examples to imply system, then that presents an argument against the implications drawn from the Tools text just above... seeing as those conflict with extant cases.

 

[clearstream]

This bit is not directly addressing you @pukunui but one problem I often see here and elsewhere is than many modern people see magic as something added on to the basic physics of the world. Where as, in my opinion, a world that has magic, magic is as fundamental as gravity, everything in the world would interact in some way with magic.

It's something of a digression, but to me magic is not physics and thus not reliable. It stands outside of scientific thought. It could require special and inconsistent conditions to function. Many things might not interact with it.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

It's something of a digression, but to me magic is not physics and thus not reliable. It stands outside of scientific thought. It could require special and inconsistent conditions to function. Many things might not interact with it.

Again real world thinking, magic in D&D is utterly reliable, say the correct words, dance the correct dance, have the correct symbols in hand and you can have a fireball every time. The only restriction is the endurance and practice to hold enough "whatever" that powers a third level slot.

For that matter, physics is the study of matter, its fundamental constituents and the forces that act on it. If magic is real, it is for damn sure part of the subject of physics, because otherwise one is ignoring a major component of the forces that act on matter.

 

[ezo]

That's a good observation and one I want to reflect on... the Utilize wording is forceful. If you are right, a further implication is that text like that in Vecna, Eve of Ruin specifying

This room's only door is padlocked from the outside. As an action, a character with thieves' tools can use them to try to open the lock, doing so with a successful DC 18 Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check.​

is emptied of meaning, as the DC with thieves' tools will always be 15.

It is an inconsistancy which leads to confusion, certainly.

I also think the designers should reinforce the game mechanics in the wording:
By taking the Utilize action, a character with thieves' tools can use them to try to open the lock, doing so with a successful DC 18 Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check.

Another helpful thing would be if text under Tools specified the DCs shown are "typical" and not absolute.

You make a good point, noting too the Vecna, Eve of Ruin examples @Remathilis helpfully supplied. Technically, my rules analysis remains correct: every text citing Sleight of Hand thus far is an example of world content and not game system. Leading me to conjecture that the designers, while accustomed to parameterising world content of that sort with Sleight of Hand, for some reason whithheld from adding it to the game system text for the skill. The kind of motive that would result in such a design choice aligns well with your preference: they didn't want to chain picking locks and disarming traps to one skill.

Obviously given every example we know of, they did chain it to Sleight of Hands in practice.

And if, as I mentioned above, it was giving as a "most often used" example of Sleight of Hands under the Skills information, there would be no doubt of the two being chained together.

As a secondary thought, if one does read world content examples to imply system, then that presents an argument against the implications drawn from the Tools text just above... seeing as those conflict with extant cases.

Which is why I'll say again: It is an inconsistancy which leads to confusion, certainly.

What I wonder is this: does a tool proficiency allow you to add your proficiency bonus still RAW? I would think so. But then the implication is you can pick a lock either by making a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check OR a Dexterity (Thieves' tools) check?

I can more easily see someone who is proficiecnt in Thieves' tools picking a lock than just having Sleight of Hand proficiecny. Tool proficiency, IMO, includes knowledge of the things you are intereacting with... the mechanisms of locks and traps. Having extra training in Sleight of Hand doesn't imply that to me AT ALL!

Frankly, I will never use Sleight of Hand for picking a lock or disarming a trap. What is the point of tool proficiencies if we don't use them and default everything to a skill instead?

 

[clearstream]

Again real world thinking, magic in D&D is utterly reliable, say the correct words, dance the correct dance, have the correct symbols in hand and you can have a fireball every time. The only restriction is the endurance and practice to hold enough "whatever" that powers a third level slot.

I agree, and in that sense it's not magic but technology... about which I agree with your observations.

If magic is real, it is for damn sure part of the subject of physics, because otherwise one is ignoring a major component of the forces that act on matter.

That's not metaphysically necessitated, rather it's the semantic implication of "real"... which needs unwinding. We could inhabit (and many believe we do) a dualistic reality, in which the ineffable (which defies study and is inconsistent) interacts with the effable (the "physical" universe, which may be studied and found consistent).

 

[clearstream]

It is an inconsistancy which leads to confusion, certainly.

Unless one avoids drawing the implications that are driving said confusion

Obviously given every example we know of, they did chain it to Sleight of Hands in practice.

Yet they chose not to systematize that practice.

 

[Maxperson]

I embroider it on a piece of fabric.

3 hours later... "Okay. I think I have this room done!"

 

[roguish]

Another helpful thing would be if text under Tools specified the DCs shown are "typical" and not absolute.

Oh yes. There are SO MANY instances of "DC 15" (usually) that make little or zero sense, and would make all the sense if that DC was "typical" or "default" or something.

• Identify any ongoing spell: Arcana DC 15
• Climb any tricky surface (slippery or with few handholds): Athletics DC 15
• Avoid full damage falling into water from any height: Athletics or Acrobatics DC 15
• Swim in all kinds of rough water: Athletics DC 15
• Everything tool related: detect any poison with a Poisoner's Kit, spot anyone cheating with a Gaming Set (DC 10), identify any substance with Alchemist's Supplies, detect any poison in a drink with Brewer's Supplies or in food with Cook's Utensils, appraise any gem with Jeweler's Tools, disarm any trap (well. on paper.) with Thieves' Tools (DC 15), pry open any door with Carpenter's Tools [whereas forcing a door open without tools has a scaling DC from 10 to 30 per the DMG], win any game with a Gaming Set, duplicate any wax seal with a Forgery Kit (DC 20)
• (with the exception of a tool use that seems to say that, but is specified elsewhere to say something else: lockpicking is not a flat DC, it depends on the lock)
• And of course the inexplicable Stealth DC 15

And RAI is opaque here. I have no way of knowing which of these flat DCs were meant to be default but there was shoddy writing involved (like locks), and which are a deliberate choice of game design. The Influence action does say "default" DC 15, so they are clearly aware this is a word!

The good news is that the DM can easily adapt all of that, so on some level I do realise I'm whining for the heck of it. Please forgive my grumpiness.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Oh yes. There are SO MANY instances of "DC 15" (usually) that make little or zero sense, and would make all the sense if that DC was "typical" or "default" or something.

• Identify any ongoing spell: Arcana DC 15
• Climb any tricky surface (slippery or with few handholds): Athletics DC 15
• Avoid full damage falling into water from any height: Athletics or Acrobatics DC 15
• Swim in all kinds of rough water: Athletics DC 15
• Everything tool related: detect any poison with a Poisoner's Kit, spot anyone cheating with a Gaming Set (DC 10), identify any substance with Alchemist's Supplies, detect any poison in a drink with Brewer's Supplies or in food with Cook's Utensils, appraise any gem with Jeweler's Tools, disarm any trap (well. on paper.) with Thieves' Tools (DC 15), pry open any door with Carpenter's Tools [whereas forcing a door open without tools has a scaling DC from 10 to 30 per the DMG], win any game with a Gaming Set, duplicate any wax seal with a Forgery Kit (DC 20)
• (with the exception of a tool use that seems to say that, but is specified elsewhere to say something else: lockpicking is not a flat DC, it depends on the lock)
• And of course the inexplicable Stealth DC 15

And RAI is opaque here. I have no way of knowing which of these flat DCs were meant to be default but there was shoddy writing involved (like locks), and which are a deliberate choice of game design. The Influence action does say "default" DC 15, so they are clearly aware this is a word!

The good news is that the DM can easily adapt all of that, so on some level I do realise I'm whining for the heck of it. Please forgive my grumpiness.

I'm pretty sure RAI is ease of use being prioritized over practically everything else.