D&D General The D&D Multiverse: Too Weird to Live, Too Rare to Die

[Micah Sweet]

The Great Wheel is too well organized to represent a multiverse where Law and Chaos are in equilibrium.

I always assumed the Great Wheel was a mortal sage interpretation of the multiverse. It being Lawful in presentation makes sense in that context.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Thanks for this nugget Snarf. Was that RPG Villains & Vigilantés?

Superhero: 2044

Largely forgotten now, unfortunately. Published in 1977.

 

[Voadam]

I mean who cares what the MOTP from three editions ago says?

IIRC the 3E Manual also said, "The Prime Material Plane of the D&D cosmology is called Oerth."

obviously that's not how it worked before or after 3E. Oerth isn't even the only planet lit by the same sun, much less the name of whole Material Plane.

3e MotP recognizes Oerth as an individual world but also gives it as the name of the 3e default Prime Material Plane. The latter is new to 3e as far as I can tell.

3e Manual of the Planes pages 5-6:

"The core planar arrangements are provided as an example, and you should choose which parts to keep and which parts to create anew. The center of the Great Wheel is Oerth, the core world for the D&D game. Around it lie the Inner Planes of fire and water, earth and air, and positive and negative energy. Beyond are the planes of good and evil, law and chaos. The white mists of the Astral Plane connect it all."

Page 16:

"Material Plane: The Material Plane encompasses the world of Oerth and the world presented in the core D&D rulebooks. Alternate Material Planes may exist as well."

Page 42-43:

"OERTH: THE D&D COSMOLOGY’S MATERIAL PLANE
Oerth, the Material Plane for the D&D cosmology, consists of self-contained spherical bodies hanging in space. Oerth has all the usual traits and connections of a Material Plane. It connects to the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow, and travelers from Oerth may reach the Inner and Outer Planes through the Astral Plane.
Oerth’s cosmology is laid out in the planar diagrams presented in Chapter 1. A sphere of the six Inner Planes surrounds Oerth, which also connects to the Astral Plane, and through it to the Great Wheel of seventeen Outer Planes. Each of the six Inner Planes is not connected to another Inner Plane, but each Outer Plane is connected to its neighbors. If you know where to look, you can find your way all the way around the Great Wheel from Celestia to the Abyss and back.
In addition, there are more small demiplanes connected to Oerth than can be counted. Many of these have been created by deities or powerful wizards as places to hide their riches, get away from the mundane world, or imprison particularly unpleasant enemies.
Oerth does not have any known connections with alternate Material Planes (see below). These alternates may exist intermittently if you want your campaign to visit them.
While Oerth itself does not have elemental or energy traits, particular locations on the plane have pockets that have elemental traits. These areas are often located near portals or vortices to the various Elemental Planes."

For purposes of Snarf's original multiverse that second to last paragraph is key "Oerth does not have any known connections with alternate Material Planes"

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Show me a D&D book that has better evidence of alternate cosmologies. Allowing it without saying it is not evidence, even if you prefer that.

I mean, as noted, the 3e MOTP explicitly says the Great Wheel has no place for these other planes. It's not just "well it doesn't say you can't," because it DOES say that.

 

[Scribe]

Oh, absolutely agreed. The Great Wheel is lawful down to its bones.

As a Lawful practitioner myself?

 

[Alzrius]

3e MotP recognizes Oerth as an individual world but also gives it as the name of the 3e default Prime Material Plane. The latter is new to 3e as far as I can tell.

3e Manual of the Planes pages 5-6:

"The core planar arrangements are provided as an example, and you should choose which parts to keep and which parts to create anew. The center of the Great Wheel is Oerth, the core world for the D&D game. Around it lie the Inner Planes of fire and water, earth and air, and positive and negative energy. Beyond are the planes of good and evil, law and chaos. The white mists of the Astral Plane connect it all."

Page 16:

"Material Plane: The Material Plane encompasses the world of Oerth and the world presented in the core D&D rulebooks. Alternate Material Planes may exist as well."

Page 42-43:

"OERTH: THE D&D COSMOLOGY’S MATERIAL PLANE
Oerth, the Material Plane for the D&D cosmology, consists of self-contained spherical bodies hanging in space. Oerth has all the usual traits and connections of a Material Plane. It connects to the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow, and travelers from Oerth may reach the Inner and Outer Planes through the Astral Plane.
Oerth’s cosmology is laid out in the planar diagrams presented in Chapter 1. A sphere of the six Inner Planes surrounds Oerth, which also connects to the Astral Plane, and through it to the Great Wheel of seventeen Outer Planes. Each of the six Inner Planes is not connected to another Inner Plane, but each Outer Plane is connected to its neighbors. If you know where to look, you can find your way all the way around the Great Wheel from Celestia to the Abyss and back.
In addition, there are more small demiplanes connected to Oerth than can be counted. Many of these have been created by deities or powerful wizards as places to hide their riches, get away from the mundane world, or imprison particularly unpleasant enemies.
Oerth does not have any known connections with alternate Material Planes (see below). These alternates may exist intermittently if you want your campaign to visit them.
While Oerth itself does not have elemental or energy traits, particular locations on the plane have pockets that have elemental traits. These areas are often located near portals or vortices to the various Elemental Planes."

For purposes of Snarf's original multiverse that second to last paragraph is key "Oerth does not have any known connections with alternate Material Planes"

Bear in mind that the 3E Manual of the Planes also gives us the idea that the Plane of Shadow crosses into different cosmologies. The "An Alternative Cosmology for the Transitive Planes" sidebar on page 60 opens with the following paragraph (emphasis mine):

The D&D cosmology has all known planes of existence permeated by the Astral Plane, and the Plane of Shadow connects only to whatever alternate Material Planes exist. This is not the only possible arrangement of these Transitive Planes, of course. Here’s another arrangement that might work for a cosmology you’re creating yourself.

This was built upon in the 3.5 Player's Guide to Faerun, which notes (page 140):

As described in Manual of the Planes, the Plane of Shadow constitutes the primary link between Toril’s planar cosmology and those of other worlds. The Plane of Shadow connects Toril’s Material Plane with those of other worlds, including the default world for the D&D core books—the World of Greyhawk. Naturally, in a land as full of magical portals as Faerûn is, unusual portals that connect to other Material Planes via conduits through the Plane of Shadow almost certainly exist. Some sages point to such connections as the source of spells named after the great wizards of Greyhawk, such as Otto’s irresistible dance, Otiluke’s freezing sphere, Tenser’s transformation, and the various Bigby’s hand spells.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

As a Lawful practitioner myself?

Ironically, I also generally consider myself Lawful, or at least far more favorable to Law than Chaos. But--and perhaps this is the little candleflame of Red in my otherwise Blue/White soul--I find the Great Wheel goes too far.

To each their own, of course. If there are folks who just love the Great Wheel unabashedly, awesome. To love something sincerely is good for the soul.

 

[Scribe]

Ironically, I also generally consider myself Lawful, or at least far more favorable to Law than Chaos. But--and perhaps this is the little candleflame of Red in my otherwise Blue/White soul--I find the Great Wheel goes too far.

To each their own, of course. If there are folks who just love the Great Wheel unabashedly, awesome. To love something sincerely is good for the soul.

I often try and fool myself that I have a touch of Red/Chaos, but deep down at my most honest? Its Law. Its structure, order, process. I look at the Wheel and I relax.

 

[the Jester]

New planes don't exist; planar cosmologists know the exact list and general content of every single inner, outer, and interstitial plane, without exception. No new elemental planes will ever be discovered. No new aligned planes will ever be discovered. Anything that isn't one of those--by process of elimination--must be "merely" another Prime Material plane.

There is no law that says any of this. It just speaks to a rigid interpretation of the canon material.

A purely-theoretical "well maybe other planes COULD exist!" is frankly completely trumped by the actual, historical usage of these things.

At the very least, the Far Realm is an official addition to the Great Wheel.

Moreover, both the Feywild and the Shadowfell are official additions to the Great Wheel.

For that matter, the paraelemental planes and quasielemental planes are relative late additions in 1e.

And then you have the Elemental Chaos, which is- again- now officially part of the Great Wheel.

 

[the Jester]

I certainly don't. But if one is going to say, "There can be other planes in the Great Wheel, they showed this in this book!" And then that book actually says "these other planes have no place in the Great Wheel", well, that would seem to deeply undercut the book as evidence for the thing being claimed.

To be fair, what I actually said that they (Elemental Wood and Metal) were first implied in OA, and Wood was fleshed out in the 3e MotP- which, sure, said "This isn't part of the Great Wheel", but that doesn't change the fact that earlier material implied its existence to be canon.