D&D General “‘Scantily Clad and Well Proportioned’: Sexism and Gender Stereotyping in the Gaming Worlds of TSR and Dungeons & Dragons.”

[Staffan]

The more subtle point that a lot of people have made is that even when the males weren't wearing more practical outfits, they still tended to be depicted in ways that were about pleasing men, in the ways the guys were built, the postures they adopted, and so on. Boris Vallejo, for example, is fairly equal-opportunity when it comes to making people nearly naked - but male characters in his works tend to be in dynamic/aggressive or protective (of a woman) poses, whereas women are often in more sexualized ones. That said, Vallejo does have at least some pieces which are clearly "for the ladies" in a real if Chippendales-ish way. Unlike Caldwell, say, I can't think of a single piece of Caldwell's where a man is depicted in a way that's aimed at pleasing women. This is particularly striking because Caldwell's cheesecake, whilst often less naked by inches of fabric than Vallejo, is somehow more contrived.

Yeah, most "classic" sword & sorcery fantasy art (Boris, Parkinson, Royo, etc.) tend to show dudes kicking ass and ladies swooning, both with "heroic" proportions (though often using different definitions of the term). Dudes can either have armor or be barbarian types with just loincloths, while the ladies are almost always fairly lightly dressed – often in barely-there robes and the like, but sometimes in parodies of armor. There is some portion of them that have the ladies kicking ass, but there are very few that show dudes in submissive positions swooning over the ladies.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The more subtle point that a lot of people have made is that even when the males weren't wearing more practical outfits, they still tended to be depicted in ways that were about pleasing men, in the ways the guys were built, the postures they adopted, and so on. Boris Vallejo, for example, is fairly equal-opportunity when it comes to making people nearly naked - but male characters in his works tend to be in dynamic/aggressive or protective (of a woman) poses, whereas women are often in more sexualized ones. That said, Vallejo does have at least some pieces which are clearly "for the ladies" in a real if Chippendales-ish way. Unlike Caldwell, say, I can't think of a single piece of Caldwell's where a man is depicted in a way that's aimed at pleasing women. This is particularly striking because Caldwell's cheesecake, whilst often less naked by inches of fabric than Vallejo, is somehow more contrived.

I am sure the ratio of it was more revealing images of women but he did have beefcake art of male figures too, like this one

Pretty certain that was a Caldwell image

 

[Crimson Longinus]

This is where I would disagree. If the art itself is fine, then I don't think the problem you are finding surround it should apply. If there is a movement of crude film makers making types of movies you find disgusting, but there is a brilliant film that doesn't disgust you, but is either lumped in with them due to shared aesthetics or emerges in some way from that movement's influence, I don't see why we ought to judge that piece so harshly (also I am generally pretty forgiving of artistic intent, because I think people frequently misread the messaging of art, especially around these kinds of issues)

Context matters, mate. I certainly do not support the sort of insane prudery that led an American school teacher being fired for showing the students a picture of Michelangelo's David, and I doubt anyone here wants that. All that is being suggested, that perhaps in a product supposedly aimed at all audiences, there should not be significantly more sexualised pictures of women than there is of men. Like that seems pretty damn reasonable to me. There is not some sort of moral panic going on here.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Yeah, most "classic" sword & sorcery fantasy art (Boris, Parkinson, Royo, etc.) tend to show dudes kicking ass and ladies swooning, both with "heroic" proportions (though often using different definitions of the term). Dudes can either have armor or be barbarian types with just loincloths, while the ladies are almost always fairly lightly dressed – often in barely-there robes and the like, but sometimes in parodies of armor. There is some portion of them that have the ladies kicking ass, but there are very few that show dudes in submissive positions swooning over the ladies.

One quick rule of thumb "sexism check" is consider swapping the genders of the participants. Does the situation feel weird, silly or uncomfortable that way? If it does, then there might be something wrong. This of course is far from foolproof, but it is quick and easy.

 

[Steampunkette]

One quick rule of thumb "sexism check" is consider swapping the genders of the participants. Does the situation feel weird, silly or uncomfortable that way? If it does, then there might be something wrong. This of course is far from foolproof, but it is quick and easy.

Gotta love the Hawkeye Initiative!

 

[TiQuinn]

Some moral panics are grounded in reality, some aren't. You can start with a legitimate concern and it can reach a point where we read everything through the prism of that concern

What you’ve just described means, if it doesn’t effect you personally, there’s always a point where you can decide the merits of the concern no longer apply, and do so completely arbitrarily based upon little more than a whim or a “do I feel like discussing the portrayal of women in fantasy gaming today?”

This is where I would disagree. If the art itself is fine, then I don't think the problem you are finding surround it should apply. If there is a movement of crude film makers making types of movies you find disgusting, but there is a brilliant film that doesn't disgust you, but is either lumped in with them due to shared aesthetics or emerges in some way from that movement's influence, I don't see why we ought to judge that piece so harshly (also I am generally pretty forgiving of artistic intent, because I think people frequently misread the messaging of art, especially around these kinds of issues)

I may decide that “In the Name of the King” is a fun movie, that doesn’t change the prevailing notion that Uwe Boll is a bad director or that fantasy B movies are pretty bad in general. Liking something doesn’t change the greater context. It just means you like it despite the context.

 

[FrozenNorth]

It is a side issue around the Satanic Panic, but it also relates in that the question is how taboo we ought to make things, how we ought to evaluate art, in these kinds of moment when art or media comes under scrutiny for content

Isn’t evaluating art exactly what the posters here are doing? As far as I can tell, your posts are the only ones bringing up censorship.

 

[Meech17]

It always saddens me a little bit when I see someone asking for representation, only to be hand-waved away and be told "Everything is fine the way it is." These ladies wrote into Dragon. They said "Hey. I'm trying to be apart of this group, but I struggle to see myself in the art", and the editors took offense...

I don't know what it's like to be a woman in a male-dominated space, but I feel like I can relate at least a little. I'm a fat guy, and I've come to grips with that.. But it does feel bad that in any piece of media featuring a heavyset guy, there's a 90% chance he's going to be dumb, oafish, brash, rude, or in some other way depicted in a negative light. I see this, and I sometimes get the feeling of "Is this how everyone sees me?"

So I can certainly sympathize with a woman from the 80s. I can imagine how defeating it must have felt to be looking forward to next week's D&D session and checking your mailbox to excitedly get the new issue of Dragon, and have every depiction of a woman be either a scantly clad fantasy play-boy bunny, or a hag, with few to no images in between. How they must have thought "Is this how the guys at the game think of me?" To read the letters to the editor and see their favorite editors/columnists dismissing women with the same concerns. "Is this all they think of me too?"

It makes me even more sad to see this growing movement of guys who feel like "letting" women into our space was a mistake as well. How it wasn't gatekept enough..

Semi-Related story: When I got my first apartment I wanted to celebrate by getting a piece of art to hang on the walls. My very first thought was something by Keith Parkinson. I loved EverQuest growing up(Still do, for that matter.. and I'm probably still growing up but that's besides the point), and the cover art he did for the game boxes evoked a lot of nostalgia for me. But then I'm looking at the prints available on his site, and I'm realizing all of them feature scantly clad chicks, front and center. The Kunark cover even features Firiona Vie bound to a stone. I still really like all of the art... I think they're great pieces, and they mean a lot to me personally.. But man.. I can't hang this up in my living room.. What if my grandma comes over?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I am sure the ratio of it was more revealing images of women but he did have beefcake art of male figures too, like this one

View attachment 387927

Pretty certain that was a Caldwell image

That's just not female-aimed though (or even gay male aimed) - there's nothing about it which can support that analysis. It's beefcake, but it's aimed at impressing heterosexual men and you can tell because there's zero sexualization. Whereas there's tons of sexualization in his imagery of women.

Compare to:

Boris Vallejo | Mysterious Rider, The New St. Marks Baths advertisement (1978) | Artsy

From Heritage Auctions, Boris Vallejo, Mysterious Rider, The New St. Marks Baths advertisement (1978), Oil on board, 31 1/2 × 20 5/8 in

www.artsy.net

Which is aimed at homosexual men (rather than heterosexual). And let me be clear - that's not my theory - it's for an ad for gay bathhouse. Some heterosexual women will also be into it of course.

(Also "Ned Flanders' D&D character")

Or:

boris Vallejo painting (16)

webneel.com

Which is, imho, aimed at heterosexual women in a Chippendales-style way. He's ripped barbarian, yes, but he's smiling and opening a bottle of wine for you, and his underwear are, um, well-filled-out (but also not threateningly so).

I've put links rather than the images in case either is too risque.

Let's be clear, I love a lot of Caldwell's pieces, they really impacted me as a fantasy fan and really got me into fantasy but there's a lot of weird sexualization which in some cases I'm not even comfortable linking to, especially his desire to show basically as much crotch as possible short of actual labia etc.

Here's a piece of his I really liked, it was on the cover of FRA, one of the first books I got for D&D:

But I remember even in my era, even as a kid, there were Dragon magazine illustrations/covers and some adventure covers by Caldwell (and others) that made me a little uncomfortable with how sexualized they were, like I didn't want to be seen in public with them.

But again that one image - lady on unicorn in bronze/brass/gold armour with the these misty exotic towers behind her - that is what would appear in my head if you said "Fantasy" as in the genre. Incredible.

 

[Voadam]

Men in private gaming groups often expressed an explicit and violent male chauvinism. Fine detailed the violent actions verbally role-played by gamers through their fictional characters but says that violent role-playing does not indicate violent real-world behavior and may even have therapeutic value by providing an outlet for aggression. This type of role-playing meant that sexual violence and misogyny often (but not always) became integral to the gaming, and Fine himself observed the frequent use of rape and violence against female nonplayer characters encountered during gaming sessions, as well as sexist jokes.

This seems like an unjustified conclusion.

I can't imagine that the all male groups I mostly played TSR D&D with in the 80s and 90s were rare outliers in not making sexual violence and misogyny integral to the gaming while still having plenty of violent actions in our gaming.

If you saw frequent use of rape and violence against female NPCs in your gaming that is pretty horrible, my condolences on the bad experiences.