D&D General “‘Scantily Clad and Well Proportioned’: Sexism and Gender Stereotyping in the Gaming Worlds of TSR and Dungeons & Dragons.”

[Ruin Explorer]

That manga also changed how tabaxi look in my campaigns. First I was Type 3 or 4, but the more I watch/read Dungeon Meshi, the more I like Type 2.

Same - again gonna mention Daggerheart for allowing that you can be basically any of those cat-people, they even mention how some of them are distinctly human-like as well as the art showing it!

Haha yeah, that was me. I think I even remember the thread, it was after one of the many evil orc argument threads, and someone split off a + thread about ideas for alternative ways to present orcs.

That's the one!

 

[Remathilis]

I don't think of elves as pointy ear humans at all. The whole point of playing an elf to me was to be a non-human character who had a completely different way of experiencing the world. In some editions they don't even sleep.

I am fine with any number of approaches to demihumans but there is nothing wrong with an approach that treats them as different from humans as neanderthals or other species of human were. We can quibble over how perfectly one achieves playing a truly non-human character. The point isn't to actually simulate being a fictional race of beings but to creatively explore it as best you can.

I think that's aspirational, but not really based in reality. People play elves as pretty humans most of the time because trying to get into the mindset of a different species is hard when you control the narrative, less so when you don't and are reacting to it. Would an elf view a human tyrant as a threat or a nuisance to be outlived? A human as a peer or a pet? What does hours mean to a person who can devote years to an endeavor? The game isn't set up to measure time in decades, and an elf is no smarter, experienced or learned than a human 100 years their junior.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

but also very much not the "barely distinguishable from male" or "absolutely hideous" looks that a lot of male designers think are fine to apply to females of species that have particularly burly or grotesque male forms.

I swear it's normally the opposite. Tons of media has the males of a species as monstrous looking, while the females are just recoloured humans.

WoW is particularly bad for this.

 

[Faolyn]

As previously noted, I threw it out there as a joking sarcastic comment to highlight the weirdness of trying to use background to map being trans.

Or, more generally, the idea of being trapped between two worlds (whether as a trans allegory, general outcasting, being part of a minority heritage in a given culture, or whatever other narrative one desires to apply).

It's probably why I--autistic and asexual--have such a fondness for tieflings and other "sorta-half-planar" peoples.

(I'd probably play more half-elves and half-orcs if I didn't always have to pick human as the other half.)

 

[Remathilis]

I think this is largely a gaming conceit. Some people like having evil orcs to contend with in the setting. Personally I am more a fan of races be less inherently good or evil that way (it might make sense in some instances if a particular god is guiding them or something) but overall I want some variety. At the same time, I can see the fun of having evil orcs to kill at the end of a long day. I just file this stuff under preference. Also there is a style of fantasy cosmology where you have forces of good and forces of evil, or forces law and forces of chaos where things like elves and orcs might be naturally aligned with one or the other. For those cosmologies it can work (not sure your typical D&D setting needs to be that but it can be fun)

Which ultimately is "it's the way it is because that's how it's been".

I personally have grown to like that orcs are now a PHB race. It's forced me to face my own bias ("orcs are for slaying, not playing") and put them in a place where they exist not as canon fodder but as a people.

 

[Steampunkette]

I swear it's normally the opposite. Tons of media has the males of a species as monstrous looking, while the females are just recoloured humans.

WoW is particularly bad for this.

One of the best for it was Wildstar, which was made by a bunch of Ex-Blizzard Devs who thought WoW was becoming too casual. They made their gendered races pretty interesting in their variety without it being "Monster and Human girl". Though the Mechari and Granok definitely both did the "Exaggerated Secondary Sex Characteristics" thing.

(I also particularly like that the girl aurins are taller than the boy aurins! It's a cute detail)

 

[Charlaquin]

I think that's aspirational, but not really based in reality. People play elves as pretty humans most of the time because trying to get into the mindset of a different species is hard when you control the narrative, less so when you don't and are reacting to it. Would an elf view a human tyrant as a threat or a nuisance to be outlived? A human as a peer or a pet? What does hours mean to a person who can devote years to an endeavor? The game isn't set up to measure time in decades, and an elf is no smarter, experienced or learned than a human 100 years their junior.

Elven lifespans cause so many worldbuilding and roleplaying problems… Personally, I stole a concept from Dragon Age to resolve this issue (though it’s also used in World of Darkness for vampires instead of elves): long periods of, essentially, hibernation. Sure, elves may exhibit negligible senescence, but they tend not to remain active for much longer than an ordinary mortal lifespan. The ennui of having seen everything, combined with the pain of seeing all their mortal friends and loved ones die, tends to drive elves to retreat into their trance after about a century or so. Then they spend several decades just meditating until enough time has passed for the world to have changed significantly since they were last in it, so they can re-enter it with fresh eyes. Sure, your elf character can be 1,000 years old or whatever, but it’s been less than 100 years since their last long sleep, so they only have a normal mortal lifespan’s worth of experiences fresh in their memory.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I swear it's normally the opposite. Tons of media has the males of a species as monstrous looking, while the females are just recoloured humans.

WoW is particularly bad for this.

It's usually the opposite because the other designs get rejected in testing, not just by male-identifying players, but also by female-identifying ones. You can also see this in the choices of races that female-identifying players play - they're usually ones which are conventionally attractive - there's definitely no preference for unconventional looks.

A good example of rejected in testing is WoW in fact - in the beta, the female trolls were hideous and stooped like the male trolls, and Blizzard's frat-nerd culture bros thought this was cool/funny "lol look at those saggy boobs" etc. - but players, of both genders, really did not like it, so they changed it.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Another one which bugs me is making reptile sapients always have wide hips and boobs. Just to make them 'hot'.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Ah, but this can easily turn into the trope below, which is definitely a form of male gaze sexism.

Not that this is the most important part of the conversation, but it's also possibly worth mentioning that sexism like this does cut a bit both ways. Women are depicted as basically human, but men? Men can be monstrous. Inherently evil. Bad guys. Since these creatures are all antagonists, they're permissible to fight and kill, and it is men who are acceptable to kill, who are coded as inhuman. But you aren't supposed to hit a girl, after all. Once these creatures are a character option that should exist in both genders, they're immediately more complicated than "antagonist."

The Will to Change has a bit about how the sexist context that we live in damages the boys we bring up in it, too. In different ways, and ways that still leave them with the power, but in ways that can narrow the emotional world and often leave men feeling worthless and dependent on feminine permission to be full people. In ways that also end up hurting women, too.

It's part of why the "white knight" accusations seem so absurd to me. Sexism sucks for me, too (less so, but not zero!). And we're not going to get out of it by forgiving or excusing its perpetrators.