D&D General Playstyle vs Mechanics

[Micah Sweet]

I am speaking to the rules... its still called D&D but when you open up the phb it's the rules for playing FATE... do you believe it would still continue to be the #1 selling rpg?

It might, which in and of itself is a sad testament to the mad (IMO) popularity of the name D&D.

 

[Mort]

That name is unbelievably important in terms of popularity. Regrettably so IMO.

And yet, as 4e showed, it is not enough.

But when 5e changed the rules back to be more in line with prior editions - the numbers came surging back and better than ever. Yes, I am aware there were many factors involved, but the fact still stands.

 

[Imaro]

They were hardly the first to make the (metaphorical) claim that 5e is "everybody's second favorite RPG". Have you called out everyone you've heard make that claim?

So in order to call out anything wrong one must have called out all previous incidents of it as well? Is that what you are stating? And if not why ask?

This from the same guy who was, in multiple topics, commenting on and about the 2024 DMG without having actually seen the book. You've got to be kidding...right?

 

[soviet]

The problem is we just don't know for sure. Or it could be that the rules released with each edition of D&D just did something to capture the audience it garnered. I'm curious, do you believe that if D&D's rules were replaced with something like PBTA... it would continue to be the #1 rpg? How about FATE? FATAL?

I'll engage on this because I think it's an interesting question.

I (with no evidence) suspect that if D&D never existed, and some other reasonable trad RPG like MERP, Runequest, or WFRP had been the first published RPG instead, with the same level of marketing and support, that game would be (and have remained) the market leader like D&D is now.

Maybe not by as much. I don't deny that Gygax D&D has a certain kind of magic in the text and the imagery. Equally, I think some of its assumptions also put some people off, so maybe a MERP as the first ever RPG would have done even better. Who knows.

I suspect that if the first RPG ever had been something less trad, like FATE, PbtA, or Vampire, it could also have become market leader in the same way, albeit the original grassroots and playtest culture couldn't have come from the pre-existing wargaming culture, and would have to have built from something else (improv theatre?).

 

[soviet]

And yet, as 4e showed, it is not enough.

But when 5e changed the rules back to be more in line with prior editions - the numbers came surging back and better than ever. Yes, I am aware there were many factors involved, but the fact still stands.

4e was unquestionably still the market leader for at least the first chunk of its run. I suspect it remained so throughout, and that Pathfinder was only ever a close second, but let's not get into that. The point being, no, in fact having 'Dungeons and Dragons' on your cover appears to be a powerful enough advantage that even if the contents are highly controversial and very vocally disliked you will still remain number 1 or possibly a close number 2.

Note also that the game competing with 4e, and maybe/maybe not briefly overtaking it, was a version of the older D&D rules, written and published by the people who supported the older D&D rules, and marketed and received as essentially the real new D&D to the already existing playerbase. It wasn't like it was a separate, competing game that overtook D&D by virtue of design innovations and having a bigger, separate, fanbase of its own.

 

[Mort]

I'll engage on this because I think it's an interesting question.

I (with no evidence) suspect that if D&D never existed, and some other reasonable trad RPG like MERP, Runequest, or WFRP had been the first published RPG instead, with the same level of marketing and support, that game would be (and have remained) the market leader like D&D is now.

Maybe not by as much. I don't deny that Gygax D&D has a certain kind of magic in the text and the imagery. Equally, I think some of its assumptions also put some people off, so maybe a MERP as the first ever RPG would have done even better. Who knows.

I suspect that if the first RPG ever had been something less trad, like FATE, PbtA, or Vampire, it could also have become market leader in the same way, albeit the original grassroots and playtest culture couldn't have come from the pre-existing wargaming culture, and would have to have built from something else (improv theatre?).

Perhaps, but I suspect not.

This is a tangent but (and an opinion):

Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of the systems you listed are level based.

I strongly believe (and am certainly not the first to do so) one of the driving forces behind the huge success of D&D was/is the level system. As clunky as it often is, there is some kind of psychological magic that makes people REALLY want to advance to the next level, then the next - then the next. Something I do not see with point-based systems that lack the level mechanic.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So in order to call out anything wrong one must have called out all previous incidents of it as well? Is that what you are stating? And if not why ask?

This from the same guy who was, in multiple topics, commenting on and about the 2024 DMG without having actually seen the book. You've got to be kidding...right?

My point is, why are you complaining about it now? My issues with 5.5 are well-documented.

 

[tetrasodium]

Perhaps, but I suspect not.

This is a tangent but (and an opinion):

Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of the systems you listed are level based.

I strongly believe (and am certainly not the first to do so) one of the driving forces behind the huge success of D&D was/is the level system. As clunky as it often is, there is some kind of psychological magic that makes people REALLY want to advance to the next level, then the next - then the next. Something I do not see with point-based systems that lack the level mechanic.

That Alsoaligns with my experience while running games that use a pointbuy type advancement rather than levels. Both game types will be similar with one shots & other short lived campaigns but levels bring something magic.

 

[Imaro]

My point is, why are you complaining about it now? My issues with 5.5 are well-documented.

My point is who are you to decide when I can or can't post?

 

[Micah Sweet]

My point is who are you to decide when I can or can't post?

I can't of course, and I don't want to. I just think this particular complaint doesn't IMO have a lot of merit. I'm not stopping you from posting whatever you want.