D&D General Just sweeping dirty dishes under the rug: D&D, Sexism, and the '70s

[Gradine]

I disagree, in part. A lot of socially awkward and ostracized people join this hobby and find a community that is more accepted an inclusive. A good number of these folks do not understand social queues and I have gamed with many awkward people and those on the spectrum.

A lot of times, they do not recognize when they have gone too far or are being rude and insensitive. I have a close friend who has real issues tied up with women. He was emotionally abused by women at a young age and into adulthood and preyed on a lot over the years. He is the type who will bend over backwards for his male and female friends but he has no filter.

I have counseled him a lot over the years and he gets called out immediately when he makes comments and you have to explain why they were bad.

I do not want to cut out good people who need the help and friendship that gaming provides with blanket directives to drive them out of the hobby.

Predators and bad actors need to be thrown out though.

It is obviously the predators and bad actors I am talking about. It is actually very simple to tell the difference between someone well-meaning but uninformed (or even well-meaning but with trauma-related issues; I've had my own friends in that company) and someone who is actually an existential threat.

 

[mamba]

You’re James Bond?

no, Paul McCartney

 

[Mannahnin]

I’m not even sure what the preferred US term for “r” is now. I use “MR”, because a relative who’s married to a special educator uses it. I would guess that’s a medical/special ed term, but someone also thinks it’s wrong because they prefer some newer neologism.

Developmentally Disabled is the term I was taught in college in the 90s. Intellectually Disabled is the newer term and officially replaced the term MR in US federal laws in 2010.

As to that “knowing their audience” bit, it honestly reminds me of when indoor smoking bans were proposed. The bar industry was absolutely sure that it would ruin them. Come to find out, the smokers had long been out numbered by non-smokers who were actually more comfortable in the bar or restaurant without the smoke. For the most part, sales and patrons increased.

Smokers didn’t stop drinking at bars, they just stopped smoking in them. Gaming is no different.

There was also a decades-long process of shifting public opinion re: smoking in bars. I just saw a video clip on FB from the BBC from 1971 about a pub in England which did suffer in their business quite a bit, as the public sentiment hadn't shifted enough yet.

Wait a minute, maybe the all-encompassing power should be the first wish, because it could all go boom tomorrow, then what do you got, y'know? No, no, killing the bards and all those gamers singing and getting along ... that would be great, that would be nice. But wait a minute, who am I kidding? They're not going to be able to get all the gamers together. I mean, the logistics of the thing is impossible, more trouble than it's worth! Not to mention ... have you seen people lately? Have you even read facebook or twitter/X or the comments on youtube? So -- we reorganize! Here we go. First, the power. We go with that. Second, the money. And then give other people what they want ... NO, wait, we give ME what I WANT. Which is killing off the bards. And other people singing and stuff. Oh wait, oh jeez, I forgot about revenge against my enemies! Okay, I need revenge against all my enemies, they should die like pigs in hell! That would be my fourth wish. Actually, maybe that's my first wish. Mostly because of social media. And also because that would be the bards as well, plus DEREK!!!!! But let's assume I have four wishes.

Bravo! Happy Holidays!

Now, to be fair, when I was gaming at the FLGS in early 90's, LARPing was already pretty well established. Remember, Vampire was so big that it managed to actually get a season on prime time network TV. Something D&D has yet to manage.

Granted it was a single season, fair enough. But, that's still more than D&D, despite it's size, has ever done.

LARPing was bigger in the UK in the 80s, to my recollection, but started to be a thing in the US. Convention/parlor LARPs had been a thing for a while, but boffer fantasy LARPs started in 1977 with Dagorhir, the IFGS in 1981 inspired by the novel Dream Park, and gradually spread here and there.

Vampire LARPing started in the 90s after the release of V:tM. I was at the convention in (April?) '93 which Mark Rein-Hagen and Jonathan Tweet flew out to Seattle for, to designate The Camarilla, which ran a ton of such LARPs, as the official fan org for White Wolf. Aaron Spelling's Kindred: The Embraced was '96. I remember hearing that it got cancelled because the lead actor died in a motorcycle accident, but apparently it was cancelled first.

But, what blows my mind is when people talk about things like, "well it was just that way then" or "a sign of the times" all the while ignoring that this has been a perennial issue. Go to the thread I lnked above. 19 posts in and you get someone straight up claiming that the problem doesn't exist. This isn't 1976 or even 86. This is in 2016! In 2016 people are actually seriously claiming that there is no sexism in gaming. :wow:

Great call bringing up that thread.

Both the Basic Rules and Cook/Marsh's Expert rules were filled with non-cheesecake illustrations of female characters of every class. Now, it's not perfect. The illustration of Morgan is pretty ridiculous, and both the female magic-user on the cover and in the illustration mentioned above sport high-slit dresses that show off some skin. But the book as a whole was inclusive enough that I could give it to my 12 year old sister, and she was immediately onboard and eager to play.

This continued with the 1983 Mentzer revision. Though he abandoned the explicit "he or she" style in favor of a slightly more stilted one that avoided third-person pronouns, the interior artwork by Jeff Easley and Larry Elmore was an improvement even on B/X with its inclusion of tasteful and inspiring artwork of female characters. Again, not perfect. On the plus side, it introduces the cleric Alanna as a mentor to the (illustrated male) tutorial character. On the minus side, it fridges her not long after her introduction. But this was all pretty progressive for the early 80s.

Now, given the totality of TSR's history, from the 1970s through the late 80s and early 90s, why were these products comparatively non-sexist? Because this was peak "D&D as mass market product" era. TSR was happy to be progressive if they thought there was money in it.

1985 saw a withdrawal from this as sales plummeted in the post-fad era. This was when Clyde Caldwell, with his Neo-Frazetta style, was hired, and put in charge of the Gazeteer covers. 2nd Edition, while being much less cheesecake in the core books, elected to use "he" throughout the PHB and DMG. It seems to me that with falling sales, the company endeavored to market more towards what they perceived as their core market: young, male hobbyists. And ironically, this was all under the auspice of Lorraine Williams, with Gygax ousted in late 1985.

My sister and I got into D&D in 1987, first with B/X, and then BECM, so our exposure to TSR cheesecake was somewhat delayed. From our experience with BECM, we were fans of Elmore, and regarded Caldwell with some exasperated amusement. In all his art for Dragonlance, Elmore drew Goldmoon as wearing long buckskin pants. When Caldwell drew her for DL 1 - Dragons of Despair, he naturally removed her pants. We understood then that Caldwell's desire to draw female skin knew no logic nor shame.

Some good perspective there! Caldwell did freelance work for TSR for years before he got hired on as staff, bear in mind. His first cheesecake Dragon Magazine cover was Dragon Spell, issue #53, Sept 1981. Followed by 58 and 72, at a glance.

 

[GrimCo]

First and foremost, i'm not from USA, but from small EU country. I also lived in Germany (Munich),Austria (Vienna) and Italy (Milano). From personal experience, organised play just isn't big thing here. Even in game stores, people who do play, are mostly already formed friend/acquaintance groups that just need place to play ( although, in game stores, there are more MtG players than ttrpg players). Gaming conventions aren't really that numerous also ( USA has way more than whole Europe combined).

In my hometown (around 1 million people) we have 1 convention of sf/fantasy that has organised play. Most of people who play there know each other or at least have someone they know in common, which is mixed bag. If you have personal grudge with someone who is also gamer, there is good chance you will bump into each other, maybe even be in the same game. When it comes to stores (really, only one store in town with game room) and play, they have pretty lax rules - don't disturb people at other tables and don't make mess ( also, no smoking and drinking).

In essence, when it comes to hobby in my neck of the woods, it's mostly fragmented into small home groups. And i don't particularly care what other people do in their home games.

 

[Gradine]

no, Paul McCartney

Before or after he died and was replaced?

 

[Micah Sweet]

First and foremost, i'm not from USA, but from small EU country. I also lived in Germany (Munich),Austria (Vienna) and Italy (Milano). From personal experience, organised play just isn't big thing here. Even in game stores, people who do play, are mostly already formed friend/acquaintance groups that just need place to play ( although, in game stores, there are more MtG players than ttrpg players). Gaming conventions aren't really that numerous also ( USA has way more than whole Europe combined).

In my hometown (around 1 million people) we have 1 convention of sf/fantasy that has organised play. Most of people who play there know each other or at least have someone they know in common, which is mixed bag. If you have personal grudge with someone who is also gamer, there is good chance you will bump into each other, maybe even be in the same game. When it comes to stores (really, only one store in town with game room) and play, they have pretty lax rules - don't disturb people at other tables and don't make mess ( also, no smoking and drinking).

In essence, when it comes to hobby in my neck of the woods, it's mostly fragmented into small home groups. And i don't particularly care what other people do in their home games.

I live in the USA, but my personal experience with the local gaming community mostly matches yours.

 

[Gradine]

You’re James Bond?

Before or after he died and was replaced?

 

[mamba]

Before or after he died and was replaced?

must be after then, because he wrote this after the Beatles broke up

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Before or after he died and was replaced?

Wait .... Paul McCartney was actually George Lazenby?

Mind ..... blown.

 

[billd91]

There was also a decades-long process of shifting public opinion re: smoking in bars. I just saw a video clip on FB from the BBC from 1971 about a pub in England which did suffer in their business quite a bit, as the public sentiment hadn't shifted enough yet.

Another element of the problem is how patchwork the ban on smoking is. When it's just a single pub, yeah, I can see that hurting since the smokers will migrate the pub down the street. We had a similar issue in my state when my local county banned smoking in bars but the surrounding counties did not - there was a lot of arguing that people will just go to bars over the county line. When the whole state banned smoking in enclosed, public areas, that issue was neutralized.