D&D General Just sweeping dirty dishes under the rug: D&D, Sexism, and the '70s

[Steampunkette]

I mean, let's be honest, The Book of Vile Darkness is a terrible supplement even if you ignore all of the extremely atrocious and objectionable narrative content contained within. Like... just the game design stuff is bad. It makes a worthwhile museum piece, perhaps a polemic on how to absolutely not introduce mature themes into your tabletop RPG, but I struggle to see what value it could possibly hold otherwise.

Heeeey...

I love the Crushing Fist of Spite! And the additional Demons, Devils, and Undead are useful, too. Apocalypse from the Sky makes for a good "Big Evil Ritual you have to Stop" in a populated area. And the Darklight spell is just -mint- for Underdark adventures.

I'll definitely agree most of the content is trash, but there's some shining embers among the ashes. Though you definitely have to wash a lot of the grossness off of anything you take from it, in the end.

 

[Dire Bare]

What? This isn't true

Oh yeah, it's true. Kinda.

GW is trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Warhammer is still plenty grimdark . . . but you wouldn't necessarily guess based on their more mass-market advertising with the Spes Mahrines front-and-center.

And then there are those middle-grade books published for kids!!

And it's a problem causing folks newer to the hobby to not realize that Warhammer was originally intended as satire on fascism, and start admiring the fascism . . . .

 

[soviet]

Oh yeah, it's true. Kinda.

GW is trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Warhammer is still plenty grimdark . . . but you wouldn't necessarily guess based on their more mass-market advertising with the Spes Mahrines front-and-center.

And then there are those middle-grade books published for kids!!

And it's a problem causing folks newer to the hobby to not realize that Warhammer was originally intended as satire on fascism, and start admiring the fascism . . . .

Again, no, you are talking about the satire, not the grimdark

 

[Steampunkette]

Oh yeah, it's true. Kinda.

GW is trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Warhammer is still plenty grimdark . . . but you wouldn't necessarily guess based on their more mass-market advertising with the Spes Mahrines front-and-center.

And then there are those middle-grade books published for kids!!

And it's a problem causing folks newer to the hobby to not realize that Warhammer was originally intended as satire on fascism, and start admiring the fascism . . . .

Fascism in fantasy is -so- attractive to young minds. You have clear heroes who are bolstered and supported by the community, and you have clear villains who are reviled and hated by the community.

And it helps when the villains never speak in a language the audience can understand. Whether it's Starship Troopers or Helldivers. Mute enemies that can never tell you the truth of what's going on make for excellent targets.

It's the same fantasy that DOOM provides (And Space Marine 2 often plays like DOOM). Clear. Simplistic. Binary. You are good. They are bad. Kill they ass.

Simplistic binaries make for easy, breezy, fascism in gaming!

Which is why I'm glad TTRPGs in general are moving away from them.

 

[Dire Bare]

Again, no, you are talking about the satire, not the grimdark

Nope.

 

[MGibster]

And then there are those middle-grade books published for kids!!

I really questioned the appropriateness of those books. I haven't read any of them, so on an individual basis the books themselves might be fine, but I'm not sure the Warhammer 40k is a setting is one that should be introduced to kids between the ages of 8-12. Gotta hook 'em early I guess.

 

[Mannahnin]

Oh yeah, it's true. Kinda.

GW is trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Warhammer is still plenty grimdark . . . but you wouldn't necessarily guess based on their more mass-market advertising with the Spes Mahrines front-and-center.

And then there are those middle-grade books published for kids!!

And it's a problem causing folks newer to the hobby to not realize that Warhammer was originally intended as satire on fascism, and start admiring the fascism . . . .

I'm curious about those middle-grade books.

And I'm wondering whether video games (like the Space Marine shooter from a while ago) are part of the "lighter" side. Stuff that emphasizes the aesthetics but doesn't actually dip into the background of a dystopian nihilistic xenophobic imperium.

"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded." (quote I remember from the 3rd ed rulebook, that I'm seeing was re-used in Dawn of War).

 

[gban007]

I'm curious about those middle-grade books.

And I'm wondering whether video games (like the Space Marine shooter from a while ago) are part of the "lighter" side. Stuff that emphasizes the aesthetics but doesn't actually dip into the background of a dystopian nihilistic xenophobic imperium.

"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded." (quote I remember from the 3rd ed rulebook, that I'm seeing was re-used in Dawn of War).

Does seem a bit of a mixture lately really of different books, and agree marketing does seem to play up the Space Marines as heroes, but then you get books like Day of Ascension by Adrian Tchaikovsky come out just 2 years ago (so more recent than the Warhammer Adventures books) that shows why even knowing the eventual outcome of following a Genestealer cult, why that could be preferable to remaining in the Imperium.

 

[Steampunkette]

The marketing has ALWAYS played up the Space Marines as heroes.

So have the novels.

List of Warhammer 40,000 novels - Wikipedia

There are over 200 novels set in the Warhammer 40k universe. 8 are from the perspective of Orks. 7 are from the perspective of Eldar.

Almost everything is written with a heroic human protagonist fighting against Necrons, Orks, Eldar, and most popularly other humans who aren't heroes.

But no matter who dies along the way, humanity wins. Big triumph for humans. Either they wipe out the current nonhuman threat (or Chaos) or they overcome the chapter or corrupt chapter leader that they're doing battle against for 'totally legitimate reasons'.

They've been doing it so often for so long there's really not much else going on in the 40k universe as far as the novels are concerned.

 

[Mort]

The marketing has ALWAYS played up the Space Marines as heroes.

So have the novels.

List of Warhammer 40,000 novels - Wikipedia

There are over 200 novels set in the Warhammer 40k universe. 8 are from the perspective of Orks. 7 are from the perspective of Eldar.

Almost everything is written with a heroic human protagonist fighting against Necrons, Orks, Eldar, and most popularly other humans who aren't heroes.

But no matter who dies along the way, humanity wins. Big triumph for humans. Either they wipe out the current nonhuman threat (or Chaos) or they overcome the chapter or corrupt chapter leader that they're doing battle against for 'totally legitimate reasons'.

They've been doing it so often for so long there's really not much else going on in the 40k universe as far as the novels are concerned.

Much as I would hope otherwise (that people could "get it") I don't think the general marker (even the general gaming market) could handle literature where the humans lose significantly, or worse, are shown to be the bad guys.