D&D (2024) Best and Worst Classes Lvl 1-10.

[FrogReaver]

GWM works on long bows. That is something one should not neglect.

Yes, with 14 Dex, to hit is a bit worse. But dealing some damage at 150ft range is better than not dealing some damage at 150ft range.

Especially nice with trip attack.

I am torn with PAM. And I can see either a ranger or an eldritch knight* with shillelagh using quarterstaff and polearm master without GWM.

*monks benefit from PAM too. The reaction attack works. Sometimes attacking with the staff instead of an unarmed strike might also be benefical. There also is the question if you use monk unarmed damage for the offhand strike (probably not, but I'd probably allow it), so you can benefit from magic properties or even a mastery if you learnt one with the BA attack. It is debatable if it is worth it though.

Overall I am really unsure about the new possibilities. I don't have enough experience woth 2024 characters to actually say what works in actual play and what not. And until we see the new monsters, I guess everything is a bit speculative.

Shileleagh is probably better for warlocks. Gives you a melee/range charisma attacking combo. EB for range shileleagh for melee. Open with eb. When they finally get to you shilelagh and melee the enemy.

Limiting your ranged options as melee can be rough. Maybe on a Paladin with command and some other ranged cantrip.

 

[FrogReaver]

I fiddled around a bit. I decided to go with a glaive polearm without taking PAM. Because I did not like the look of a greatsword. Note that graze is especially good with mage slayer.

Yea something like that. Looks good. Maybe an orc for the extra speed. Maybe some different choices on Battlemaster maneuvers.

 

[Zardnaar]

The problem I have with cleave is that it’s only once per turn.

Also, I don’t read the cleave attack as being part of your attack action. It literally calls it an extra attack and occurs if you hit a creature with a melee attack roll using this weapon. Meaning it wouldn’t benefit from GWM by my reading but it would allow you to use it on your turn and on an OA.

Its also not clear that if you had a great axe and halbred whether you could swap weapons after your first attack and apply cleave with both, assuming you have extra attack and hit with both attacks.

That said you get more than one mastery.

If I’m a fighter I’m probabaly having one graze and one cleave weapon and one topple weapon.

If I’m a barbarian I’m going for cleave and topple since I can make my own advantage easily.

If I’m a Paladin probably cleave and topple.

If im a great weapon ranger probably cleave and graze.

Extra attack is still 1d10 to anyone. PAM gives you an extra attack to trigger it.

Any extra sources of damage that is an ability modifier applies. GWM, Rage, magic weapon etc.

Even an extra 5.5 damage (halberd) is still more damage.

Hence why PAM looks good on a Barbarian and a fighter. 3 attacks a round excellent chance of the extra attack. I'm probably taking PAM and GWM eventually anyway espically as a fighter. That makes Treantmonks math narrow to 1.5 damage base hit vs PAM butt strike+ potential reaction and cleave damage.

 

[FrogReaver]

Extra attack is still 1d10 to anyone. PAM gives you an extra attack to trigger it.

Any extra sources of damage that is an ability modifier applies. GWM, Rage, magic weapon etc.

Even an extra 5.5 damage (halberd) is still more damage.

Hence why PAM looks good on a Barbarian and a fighter. 3 attacks a round excellent chance of the extra attack. I'm probably taking PAM and GWM eventually anyway espically as a fighter. That makes Treantmonks math narrow to 1.5 damage base hit vs PAM butt strike+ potential reaction and cleave damage.

GWM only applies to attacks that are part of the attack action. Cleave is not part of the attack action. Or maybe you can cite the text showing it is. I agree rage and magic weapons work with it.

 

[Zardnaar]

GWM only applies to attacks that are part of the attack action. Cleave is not part of the attack action. Or maybe you can cite the text showing it is. I agree rage and magic weapons work with it.

Ah my bad. I think reach+bonus action attack alone balance out the damage boost from GzWM+2d6 weapon.

We can't prove it though as white room can't account for it. Personally I would take it over GWM in a vacuum/class depending (probably not as Paladin or Ranger)

 

[ECMO3]

nm

 

[FrogReaver]

Ah my bad. I think reach+bonus action attack alone balance out the damage boost from GzWM+2d6 weapon.

We can't prove it though as white room can't account for it. Personally I would take it over GWM in a vacuum/class depending (probably not as Paladin or Ranger)

We can though.

*for level 10 numbers see below.

For a fighter without factoring in maneuvers which favor the GWM version a little (precision attack) you only need to have the reach property allow you to hit something you otherwise could not about 6% of the time.

That said in situations you cannot reach an enemy your damage usually doesn’t go to 0, it’s usually just reduced to your ranged damage, which GWM provides more of.

When you factor that in it’s about 10% of the time reach has to matter, which in my experience isn’t likely, but it should be fairly close.

The big thing about PAM is the reaction attack. The big thing for GWM is bonus action attack on kill (crit part was already accounted for). Those probably occur at similar rates, though hard to say for sure.

I guess the point is the 2 feats are fairly balanced. I prefer GWM because it works with more weapons and helps bows, but both are good. PAM is better than I thought.

If the choice is between great axe and Halbred for cleave then I’m going Halbred regardless of which feat is chosen.

 

[Zardnaar]

We can though.

*for level 10 numbers see below.

For a fighter without factoring in maneuvers which favor the GWM version a little (precision attack) you only need to have the reach property allow you to hit something you otherwise could not about 6% of the time.

That said in situations you cannot reach an enemy your damage usually doesn’t go to 0, it’s usually just reduced to your ranged damage, which GWM provides more of.

When you factor that in it’s about 10% of the time reach has to matter, which in my experience isn’t likely, but it should be fairly close.

The big thing about PAM is the reaction attack. The big thing for GWM is bonus action attack on kill (crit part was already accounted for). Those probably occur at similar rates, though hard to say for sure.

I guess the point is the 2 feats are fairly balanced. I prefer GWM because it works with more weapons and helps bows, but both are good. PAM is better than I thought.

If the choice is between great axe and Halbred for cleave then I’m going Halbred regardless of which feat is chosen.

I've seen 2 PAM builds in action. One was piloted by very new player she made dome mistakes but very good.

Second one was piloted by the boss and she was bit more tactical. You can go up to someone with reach, knick them prone, action surge and if they're still alive you 5' step away. If they want to hit you you get your reaction attack.

Positioning is important battlemat or map advised.

That extra attack off PAM is another opportunity to land a strike if you miss with the first two. Knocked prone action surge time.

White room yay. Real game I suspect PAM will win and you cam GWM it as well. Extra fighter fea may as well.

3 feats and 20 strength by level 8. Reach alone and bonus action attack will likely beat GWM outside a white room.

 

[FrogReaver]

I've seen 2 PAM builds in action. One was piloted by very new player she made dome mistakes but very good.

Second one was piloted by the boss and she was bit more tactical. You can go up to someone with reach, knick them prone, action surge and if they're still alive you 5' step away. If they want to hit you you get your reaction attack.

Positioning is important battlemat or map advised.

That extra attack off PAM is another opportunity to land a strike if you miss with the first two. Knocked prone action surge time.

White room yay. Real game I suspect PAM will win and you cam GWM it as well. Extra fighter fea may as well.

3 feats and 20 strength by level 8. Reach alone and bonus action attack will likely beat GWM outside a white room.

I just ran the numbers. I don’t believe for one second that reach matters more than 10% of the time, which is what it takes to break even.

I also don’t believe you are going to trigger more than 1-2 reaction attacks with it in most encounters.

Likewise, I believe most encounters you will kill 1-2 enemies and get to proc your GWM bonus attack from that.

Nothing to do with white room. They are mostly even. The stuff you wanted accounted for has been.

 

[Zardnaar]

I just ran the numbers. I don’t believe for one second that reach matters more than 10% of the time, which is what it takes to break even.

I also don’t believe you are going to trigger more than 1-2 reaction attacks with it in most encounters.

Likewise, I believe most encounters you will kill 1-2 enemies and get to proc your GWM bonus attack from that.

Nothing to do with white room. They are mostly even. The stuff you wanted accounted for has been.

Reach is useful to set up your reaction attack without an AoO.

You xan also move up to two opponents. Hit one cleave the other. Keep hitting target 1. If it dies you get a bonus action attack. If it doesn't you hit it again with butt strike.

If you're a fighter take both. If anyone comes within 10' melee you get a reaction attack. Which triggers cleave again.

And if you take both the average damage difference is1.5 on your primary attacks.

At level 6 fighter (or 5) you're potentially looking at 6 attacks a round.8 with action surge.

You can also trigger cleave off riposte if you're a battlemaster.