D&D (2024) Best and Worst Classes Lvl 1-10.

[Minigiant]

Well the new DMG rules, low HP mooks don't have an XP penalty so

Cleave
GWM
Cheap AOE

are stronger

But deadly reaction strikes that trigger on enemy action will be weaker.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Agreed.
Sorcerer's are even worse though. They don't have the points to do their thing.
Wizard's at least have a rituals they can use all the time.

The sorcerer's thing at low levels is oodles of cantrips (five I think). There's a lot of utility there.

Of course Tomelocks at low level can take on wizards with rituals (you only need Find Familiar once and can flex what you know) and sorcerers with cantrips at the same time.

 

[mellored]

The sorcerer's thing at low levels is oodles of cantrips (five I think). There's a lot of utility there.

Wizard can change their cantrip.

So I still think sorcerer, wizard, bard, and Fighter are the bottom 4 from 1-10. In that order.

 

[FrogReaver]

What's wrong with True Strike for melee? Before level 5 it's better than Eldritch Blast anyway - and from level 5+ that extra 1d6 damage means it outdamages Shillelagh.

Level 5
2x attacks with shilelagh at level 10.
1d10+4 x2 = 19

Level 5
True Strike with agonizing Blast at level 5 (assuming the stacking cha mod damage interpretation)
1d8+1d6+8 = 16

Maybe I'm missing something?

I mostly agree with the rest.

And there are definite power curves - for example at levels 1-2 I'd call wizards and sorcerers the worst and warlocks the best thanks to their imp bodyguards. Wizards I don't think get genuinely good until level 7 - and the warlock's imps don't scale at all. (Also mentioning the warlock brings up the question of how generous your DM/campaign is with short rests and whether you have any ways of "stealing" 10 minute short rests).

And the good thing is that I don't think there are any classes that aren't legit at what they are supposed to do (unlike the 2014 monk) and where what they are supposed to do isn't useful even if the tanking is anaemic. So a lot depends on how it fits your playstyle.

 

[FrogReaver]

Fun Battlemaster combo is that cleave works with riposte maneuver.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Wizard can change their cantrip.

So I still think sorcerer, wizard, bard, and Fighter are the bottom 4 from 1-10. In that order.

Yeah. No. But I guess it really depends hsow the campaign is structured.

 

[FrogReaver]

The problem with the entire "how good is PAM" question is that it's something that's almost entirely dependent on the local meta and what tactics your DM uses.

The bonus action attack is dependent on what else you would get a bonus action attack for, and the GWM bonus action attack is just simply better than the PAM one if you trigger it even if you are wielding a polearm. You need to crit or kill to trigger it.

• You can't use it on turns you rage (or second wind, lay on hands, or smite) - rage is the big one here because that's your first and most important round in combat.
• You don't want to use it in cases when your main attacks crit or kill. How likely is this? How easily do you get Advantage? Does your DM use minions? Do you trigger cleave often? (Because Cleave with Advantage is a further two chances to crit).
• Does your subclass have other uses for bonus actions? (Rune Knight and Echo Knight I'm looking at you!)

The reaction attack is dependent on NPC tactics:

• Do the enemies rush in?
• Do you have a Push to push them back out?
• Do the enemies have enough reach that they don't care because e.g. they are giants whose clubs are longer than your polearms?
• Are they casters/archers who you want to run down anyway? Or can skirmish?
• Do you have other commonly triggered reactions? (Berserker, World Tree, Echo Knight, Rune Knight I'm looking at you)

Also what are the alternatives?

• Are you going to be playing the bulk of the game when you would have PAM at levels 8-11 when +2 STR is a strong rival for a non-fighter
• If you want the +1 STR buff there are alternatives - Sentinel, Mounted Combatant, Charger, Mage Slayer, Heavy Armour Master are all rivals.
• If your bonus action clogs up a lot will sentinel trigger more than the reaction from PAM and is thus better at the same job?

The quick version is that Great Weapon Master is the core feat, PAM is definitely a feat to consider. But the considerations are a character by character and campaign by campaign thing. Which is where balance ought to be.

First I agree. You cannot quantify in actual meaningful numbers for a random table how good PAM will be for a particular character. Its too context dependent.

But you don’t necessarily have to. You calc everything else and then say you need X proc rate of the reaction attack to break even. Then if you are lucky that % won’t be realistically achievable and you’ve completed your comparison.

Alternatively you can also just state dpr with reaction attack and without it and let reader apply percentages based on their local meta to answer the question for themselves.

 

[mellored]

Yeah. No. But I guess it really depends hsow the campaign is structured.

Then who would you put at the bottom?

 

[Neonchameleon]

2x attacks with shilelagh at level 10.
1d10+4 x2 = 19

How are you getting two attacks? Warlocks (which this conversation is about) don't get extra attack without Pact of the Blade - in which case you have better weapons than sticks. And the cantrip itself can combo with extra attack but can't grant it.

 

[Horwath]

How are you getting two attacks? Warlocks (which this conversation is about) don't get extra attack without Pact of the Blade - in which case you have better weapons than sticks. And the cantrip itself can combo with extra attack but can't grant it.

you can 2×club with shillelagh and 1×pact of the blade with another light weapon and have 3× cha based attacks.