D&D (2024) Best and Worst Classes Lvl 1-10.

[FrogReaver]

Reach is useful to set up your reaction attack without an AoO.

Once. Provided no allies are already near that enemy.

You xan also move up to two opponents. Hit one cleave the other. Keep hitting target 1. If it dies you get a bonus action attack. If it doesn't you hit it again with butt strike.

Move targets? How? You are using a halbred with cleave here not a pike with push. Are you imagining some kind of weapon swapping occuring without stating it?

If you're a fighter take both. If anyone comes within 10' melee you get a reaction attack. Which triggers cleave again.

The enemy has to be within 5ft of the other or cleave isn't triggered. 2-3 enemies have complete control over whether they bunch up or spread out around you.

And if you take both the average damage difference is1.5 on your primary attacks.

At level 6 fighter (or 5) you're potentially looking at 6 attacks a round.8 with action surge.

No one is saying both isn't better. What's being said is that both isn't better enough. That -1.5 damage over 8 attacks is -12 damage. That's more damage lost than the bonus attack from PAM is doing.

You can also trigger cleave off riposte if you're a battlemaster.

Yes provided that enemies approach you in cleave formation. They do have to be 5ft apart to use cleave. I almost get the feeling you played as if cleave didn't have this requirement.

 

[FrogReaver]

Dup

 

[Zardnaar]

Once. Provided no allies are already near that enemy.


Move targets? How? You are using a halbred with cleave here not a pike with push. Are you imagining some kind of weapon swapping occuring without stating it?


The enemy has to be within 5ft of the other or cleave isn't triggered. 2-3 enemies have complete control over whether they bunch up or spread out around you.


No one is saying both isn't better. What's being said is that both isn't better enough. That -1.5 damage over 8 attacks is -12 damage. That's more damage lost than the bonus attack from PAM is doing.


Yes provided that enemies approach you in cleave formation. They do have to be 5ft apart to use cleave. I almost get the feeling you played as if cleave didn't have this requirement.

Except over that 8 attacks you have probably made 3 or 4 with the butt strike.

1 cleave triggered or 1 reaction attack triggered your damage is still ahead with PAM.

Say at 11fighter it's 1.5 damage 3 times vs 7.5 with a single butt strike (20 strength by 11).

4 attacks 6 vs 7.5 damage.

Assuming reach feeds you 0 attacks, 0 attacks off cleave, 0 reaction attacks.

 

[FrogReaver]

Except over that 8 attacks you have probably made 3 or 4 with the butt strike.

1 cleave triggered or 1 reaction attack triggered your damage is still ahead with PAM.

Say at 11fighter it's 1.5 damage 3 times vs 7.5 with a single butt strike (20 strength by 11).

4 attacks 6 vs 7.5 damage.

Assuming reach feeds you 0 attacks, 0 attacks off cleave, 0 reaction attacks.

You keep making random points but don’t have a clear thesis.

If it’s that GWM and PAM together do more damage. No one disputes that. The dispute is whether the little bit of extra damage they provide together is worth it. It’s unclear how any of your points contributes to that case.

If its something else then state the point.

 

[Zardnaar]

You keep making random points but don’t have a clear thesis.

If it’s that GWM and PAM together do more damage. No one disputes that. The dispute is whether the little bit of extra damage they provide together is worth it. It’s unclear how any of your points contributes to that case.

If its something else then state the point.

I'm pointing out you can't whoever room it.

For example PAM reaction attack triggers every time an enemy cones withing 10'


If you xan reach an opponent reach let's you attack vs throwing spears or whatever.

PAM reaction attack tends to trigger every ther turn assuming it's a melee fight.

I've been seeing a PAM user in action last month or two. She's out danmaging a GWM build.

Personally it depends on the class. Barbarians and Fighters PAM is looking good.

Treantmonk videos made sone incorrect assumptions and didn't do aa very good build.

He's not comparing a goid build to a good build. He's comparing his good build to a mediocre one and saying it deals less damage. Well duh. On flawed assumptions.

PAM has to many variables to white room it. Player skill with positioning, how the DM runs encounters, published adventures etc.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Shileleagh is probably better for warlocks. Gives you a melee/range charisma attacking combo. EB for range shileleagh for melee. Open with eb. When they finally get to you shilelagh and melee the enemy.

Limiting your ranged options as melee can be rough. Maybe on a Paladin with command and some other ranged cantrip.

What's wrong with True Strike for melee? Before level 5 it's better than Eldritch Blast anyway - and from level 5+ that extra 1d6 damage means it outdamages Shillelagh.

And there are definite power curves - for example at levels 1-2 I'd call wizards and sorcerers the worst and warlocks the best thanks to their imp bodyguards. Wizards I don't think get genuinely good until level 7 - and the warlock's imps don't scale at all. (Also mentioning the warlock brings up the question of how generous your DM/campaign is with short rests and whether you have any ways of "stealing" 10 minute short rests).

And the good thing is that I don't think there are any classes that aren't legit at what they are supposed to do (unlike the 2014 monk) and where what they are supposed to do isn't useful even if the tanking is anaemic. So a lot depends on how it fits your playstyle.

 

[Horwath]

What's wrong with True Strike for melee? Before level 5 it's better than Eldritch Blast anyway - and from level 5+ that extra 1d6 damage means it outdamages Shillelagh.

And there are definite power curves - for example at levels 1-2 I'd call wizards and sorcerers the worst and warlocks the best thanks to their imp bodyguards. Wizards I don't think get genuinely good until level 7 - and the warlock's imps don't scale at all. (Also mentioning the warlock brings up the question of how generous your DM/campaign is with short rests and whether you have any ways of "stealing" 10 minute short rests).

And the good thing is that I don't think there are any classes that aren't legit at what they are supposed to do (unlike the 2014 monk) and where what they are supposed to do isn't useful even if the tanking is anaemic. So a lot depends on how it fits your playstyle.

wizards and sorcerers are really the weakest until 5th level.
and 1st level wizard/sorcerer is downright boring to play.
2 spell slots? for entire day?

 

[Horwath]

You keep making random points but don’t have a clear thesis.

If it’s that GWM and PAM together do more damage. No one disputes that. The dispute is whether the little bit of extra damage they provide together is worth it. It’s unclear how any of your points contributes to that case.

If its something else then state the point.

at fighter 11 GWM+PAM does about 1 pt of damage per round more in case of champion. Using graze for both styles.
without adding whatever frequency of reaction attack you are going to get.
In case of boss fights, that might be 0%, but it will help with mooks that are running to help the boss, so it might be 100% per round of usage. but it still does not increase single target damage.

only question is, does the extra feat that you can spend with greatsword offsets that.
Charger can add some damage, at 12th level you can take Speedy and risk provoking AoO every round for extra 1d8 damage.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The problem with the entire "how good is PAM" question is that it's something that's almost entirely dependent on the local meta and what tactics your DM uses.

The bonus action attack is dependent on what else you would get a bonus action attack for, and the GWM bonus action attack is just simply better than the PAM one if you trigger it even if you are wielding a polearm. You need to crit or kill to trigger it.

• You can't use it on turns you rage (or second wind, lay on hands, or smite) - rage is the big one here because that's your first and most important round in combat.
• You don't want to use it in cases when your main attacks crit or kill. How likely is this? How easily do you get Advantage? Does your DM use minions? Do you trigger cleave often? (Because Cleave with Advantage is a further two chances to crit).
• Does your subclass have other uses for bonus actions? (Rune Knight and Echo Knight I'm looking at you!)

The reaction attack is dependent on NPC tactics:

• Do the enemies rush in?
• Do you have a Push to push them back out?
• Do the enemies have enough reach that they don't care because e.g. they are giants whose clubs are longer than your polearms?
• Are they casters/archers who you want to run down anyway? Or can skirmish?
• Do you have other commonly triggered reactions? (Berserker, World Tree, Echo Knight, Rune Knight I'm looking at you)

Also what are the alternatives?

• Are you going to be playing the bulk of the game when you would have PAM at levels 8-11 when +2 STR is a strong rival for a non-fighter
• If you want the +1 STR buff there are alternatives - Sentinel, Mounted Combatant, Charger, Mage Slayer, Heavy Armour Master are all rivals.
• If your bonus action clogs up a lot will sentinel trigger more than the reaction from PAM and is thus better at the same job?

The quick version is that Great Weapon Master is the core feat, PAM is definitely a feat to consider. But the considerations are a character by character and campaign by campaign thing. Which is where balance ought to be.

 

[mellored]

Move targets? How? You are using a halbred with cleave here not a pike with push. Are you imagining some kind of weapon swapping occuring without stating it?

Fighter 9 can push with any weapon.
But that falls outside the scope.

only question is, does the extra feat that you can spend with greatsword offsets that.

The original question was, does the extra feat make up for Shining Smite?

2d6+ Advantage for you and the party seems better than 1d4+4 bonus action attack that can miss.

I'd go with Pally.

Wizards I don't think get genuinely good until level 7 -

Agreed.
Sorcerer's are even worse though. They don't have the points to do their thing.
Wizard's at least have a rituals they can use all the time.