D&D 5E 4E Cosmology

[EzekielRaiden]

I assume you're not familiar with 2e's Planescape setting, because almost nothing you've said above is true there. Chaos does not "stay nicely in its lane"; nor does Law, for that matter, nor Good nor Evil. It's repeatedly reinforced in the published materials that a constant push and pull exists between various ideological forces, which can at times result in meaningful change. A location is part of the Abyss not because of neatly drawn static border, but because a particular strain of extreme Chaos and Evil holds there; if it were less extreme, it might instead be considered part of the Outlands, or part of Pandemonium if it's a shade more chaotic and less evil, and so on.

No. I'm quite well aware of Planescape--that's precisely the problem.

The moment a location becomes too Chaotic for Mechanus, it stops being Mechanus. But since these planes are infinite, losing any finite portion of territory is utterly irrelevant to the plane. The plane continues on, with an irrelevant nothing shifted to somewhere else.

Chaos stays where Chaos is. If Chaos tries to go where Chaos isn't, that place simply gets automatically reassigned by the universe to where Chaos is, which has zero impact on the universe at large because every one of these places is infinite.

The fact that there are 17 Outer Planes in the Great Wheel's conception is simply a consequence of the structure of the alignment system, which itself is a straightforward result of opposing forces along two axes. But just because 16 of those 17 planes are drawn on diagrams as equally sized and spaced blocks of well-confined environments doesn't make them so, and they aren't represented like that in the fiction (of Planescape, anyway). There is always struggle, and the forces aren't necessarily perfectly balanced.

All of them are equally the same size: infinite. Most likely countably infinite, but I doubt the designers ever thought about the different types of infinity, much less assigned a specific one.

Again, in Planescape entire books and boxed sets were published for every one of these places (Astral, Ethereal, Elemental, and Outer Planes), detailing a multitude of adventuring locations, encounters, adventure hooks, and full adventures. How could an entire book be published about a place "devoid of locations", including locations such as Anavaree, Believer's Forge, the Castle at the Edge of Time, Fellfield, and Leicester's Gap? How could a book be published about places that "cannot meaningfully be adventured in" full of information about adventure locations, means of travel, and conflicts to engage with?

Dunno. I'm just telling you that "an infinite plane of literally nothing but fire, unless you go to the corrupted parts that mix with other things" is not an adventurable location. Because that's literally what the Plane of Fire is. An infinite expanse of absolutely nothing but pure fire, forever.

The Great Wheel cosmology, even to the extent that you believe it's represented as some objective truth, is not the impediment to adventure gaming that you seem to think. Planescape set out to demonstrate that, successfully IMO.

I have seen it be so, personally, in actual games I've played. I don't know what to tell you beyond that.

 

[occam]

I have seen it be so, personally, in actual games I've played. I don't know what to tell you beyond that.

And others have played adventures in numerous multiplanar locations in the Great Wheel as a setting, in actual games. Which is only stated to demonstrate that your particular views on, and experiences with, the Great Wheel are not universal. You don't like the setting, that's fine, but it's nonsense to say that it's impossible to have enjoyable D&D adventure experiences in it when many people actually have.

 

[dave2008]

Even if they are not physically connected, you still have a set of 17 aligned planes, one for each primary alignment and one "in between" each of those, plus Neutral. While these planes have other aspects, they are primarily focused on their respective alignments – while Carceri is the plane of imprisonment, that's secondary to its job as being the plane combining Neutral and Chaotic Evil.

Not sure that is true, and it definitely doesn't need to be true. However, even if it is true what is the issue with that? It is not only creatures or actions of a given alignment need to occur on a give plane. They are not uniform.

From the DMG:
"If the Inner Planes are the raw matter and energy that make up the multiverse, the Outer Planes provide the direction, thought, and purpose for its construction. These are realms of spirituality and thought, the spheres where Celestials, Fiends, and deities dwell."

In addition, they serve as verifiable afterlives, which means that anyone who goes "Yeah, I'm going to be an a-hole to everyone and steal and murder my way to the top" is an idiot giving up eternal heaven for short-term gain (or, under the the Good Place rules, nullifies all efforts to do good because you know you'll be rewarded for it).

I mean both Greek and Norse mythology have verifiable afterlives, but that didn't stop people from being people!

I think, perhaps, I have a more figurative and less literally idea of what the outer planes (and the wheel) than some. From my perspective the Great Wheel and World Axis are both describing the same cosmology, they are just tales told by different people.

 

[dave2008]

All of them are equally the same size: infinite.

That is not necessarily the case. 5e, as far as I can tell, doesn't position them as infinite. It doesn't seem to say that anywhere i can see. It does suggest:

"Distance is a virtually meaningless concept on the Outer Planes. A perceptible region of a plane might seem quite small on one visit, and on another trip it can stretch on to what seems like infinity."

Also, in most editions, there is the thought that if Chaos is not contained it will take over the multiverse. So, the idea they are static and unchanging planes is not born out be the greater lore of D&D.

In my own personal take the Astral Sea was "infected" by Chaos and the Elemental Chaos was "infected" by Law during the Dawn War / First World. That is why we have the elemental planes as it was the gods invasion into the Elemental Chaos that brought to certain regions of the Elemental Chaos.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Not sure that is true, and it definitely doesn't need to be true. However, even if it is true what is the issue with that? It is not only creatures or actions of a given alignment need to occur on a give plane. They are not uniform.

The issue is that alignment itself is already an extremely rigid and artificial structure (hence the eternal issue of treating alignment like a straightjacket), and the Great Wheel reifies alignment as literally being the structure of the universe itself. Reality enforces alignment, and that enforcement is rigid and dogmatic, even for Chaos. Planescape has the worst of it, since--as noted--planes get chunks cleaved off of them the instant those chunks cease to be of appropriate alignment.

They have to be uniform--at least above a certain minimum of alignment content--or else reality itself says, "You've been too Sarcastic Fashionable for Pradadise, your lands are part of Hottopica now."

From the DMG:
"If the Inner Planes are the raw matter and energy that make up the multiverse, the Outer Planes provide the direction, thought, and purpose for its construction. These are realms of spirituality and thought, the spheres where Celestials, Fiends, and deities dwell."

Yes...that's one of the things I dislike about them. Reality has a specific, ingrained, defined, known purpose. It is "for" one and only one specific thing, filtering souls into their rigidly-defined afterlife realm within the alignment grid.

I mean both Greek and Norse mythology have verifiable afterlives, but that didn't stop people from being people!

Point of order: They did not. They held as a matter of belief that there were afterlives. No one who went to one of them could return from them IRL. Hence, they were not verifiable. But within the context of a Great Wheel cosmology, it is literally and physically the case that every soul goes to one, and only one, specific Outer Plane upon death; that that soul's location can be verified and tracked using magic; and that this is, again, a reification of alignment into the literal laws of existence itself. Laws that even Chaos is beholden to.

I think, perhaps, I have a more figurative and less literally idea of what the outer planes (and the wheel) than some. From my perspective the Great Wheel and World Axis are both describing the same cosmology, they are just tales told by different people.

I don't see how that's possible. If the Great Wheel holds any weight at all, it can be empirically verified to be true or false. Souls have to go to their assigned plane, including the Outlands/Concordant Opposition/Bernice/whatever you want to call it. They don't have a choice. Contrariwise, in the World Axis, souls have an afterlife domain they're supposed to go to, based on whichever god they worshipped or were most similar to in their behavior, but the shattering of the Lattice of Heaven broke this connection, ensuring that some souls simply don't have an afterlife to go to, a problem most deities (regardless of alignment!) are content to completely ignore because they think they have bigger fish to fry. (One of my favorite things about 4e Bahamut is that he is the only deity who cares enough about the homeless petitioners of the Astral Plane, regardless of their alignment, to try to build for them a safe and comfortable home.)

It is, quite literally, a matter of empirical fact whether the Great Wheel is true or false. That's one of the biggest things I dislike about it. It isn't allegorical, metaphorical, or metaphysical. It isn't just one plausible theory amongst many with muddy evidence. It makes explicit, specific claims about the nature of the universe and those claims not only can be verified, they are explicitly so in any setting that has signed up for it. The Great Wheel is hegemonic; it excludes any planar cosmology that disagrees with it. That's why it had to absorb and implement the Feywild and convert the Plane of Shadow into the Shadowfell; it would deny the existence of those planes if they weren't incorporated into the structure.

 

[cbwjm]

I actually just thought of etheral as a transitive plane. I am not really familiar with the lore in, before, or after 4e. I definitely don't remember any locations to adventure in the ethreal in 4e.

In old 2e (and presumably 3e) the ethereal was filled with adventure locations because that's where all these demi-planes existed. When a wizard really wanted to get away from it all, they created their own little piece of existence in the ethereal. The astral plane was more transitive back then I believe, it was what you passed through to the outer planes if I'm recalling correctly, it did have adventure sites, primarily the bodies of dead gods and the githyanki.

 

[Chaltab]

Maybe it's just because I find most old Planescape books insufferable but I honestly do find the presentation of the planes in 4E much more friendly to adventure. Even when I like the design of a plane better in the Great Wheel material, like Carceri's nested planets vs the bog of 4E, the actual lore about Carceri and the reasons it exists are so much more interesting in 4E.

It can still be a plane full of the souls of traitorous mortals, but 'a Prison of the Gods built to contain the 24/7 Abomination Factory they built and then couldn't turn off during the Dawn War' is so much more interesting than 'we needed a step between True Chaotic Evil and Evil Chaotic Neutral.

 

[Joshua Randall]

You’re not weird to like what you like and dislike what you dislike.

I am also a HUGE fan of 4e’s cosmology. It got away from the straightjacketed symmetry of 1e and felt more mythic and plausibly naturalistic. (Yes yes, it’s all made up and “magic”, but you know what I mean.)

But I can understand why those who adored some of the sacred cows that were slaughtered by 4e’s cosmology were unhappy. (In some cases literally slaughtered, like Nerull was killed by The Raven Queen!)

 

[dave2008]

The issue is that alignment itself is already an extremely rigid and artificial structure (hence the eternal issue of treating alignment like a straightjacket), and the Great Wheel reifies alignment as literally being the structure of the universe itself. Reality enforces alignment, and that enforcement is rigid and dogmatic, even for Chaos. Planescape has the worst of it, since--as noted--planes get chunks cleaved off of them the instant those chunks cease to be of appropriate alignment.

They have to be uniform--at least above a certain minimum of alignment content--or else reality itself says, "You've been too Sarcastic Fashionable for Pradadise, your lands are part of Hottopica now."


Yes...that's one of the things I dislike about them. Reality has a specific, ingrained, defined, known purpose. It is "for" one and only one specific thing, filtering souls into their rigidly-defined afterlife realm within the alignment grid.


Point of order: They did not. They held as a matter of belief that there were afterlives. No one who went to one of them could return from them IRL. Hence, they were not verifiable. But within the context of a Great Wheel cosmology, it is literally and physically the case that every soul goes to one, and only one, specific Outer Plane upon death; that that soul's location can be verified and tracked using magic; and that this is, again, a reification of alignment into the literal laws of existence itself. Laws that even Chaos is beholden to.

I don't see how that's possible. If the Great Wheel holds any weight at all, it can be empirically verified to be true or false. Souls have to go to their assigned plane, including the Outlands/Concordant Opposition/Bernice/whatever you want to call it. They don't have a choice. Contrariwise, in the World Axis, souls have an afterlife domain they're supposed to go to, based on whichever god they worshipped or were most similar to in their behavior, but the shattering of the Lattice of Heaven broke this connection, ensuring that some souls simply don't have an afterlife to go to, a problem most deities (regardless of alignment!) are content to completely ignore because they think they have bigger fish to fry. (One of my favorite things about 4e Bahamut is that he is the only deity who cares enough about the homeless petitioners of the Astral Plane, regardless of their alignment, to try to build for them a safe and comfortable home.)

It is, quite literally, a matter of empirical fact whether the Great Wheel is true or false. That's one of the biggest things I dislike about it. It isn't allegorical, metaphorical, or metaphysical. It isn't just one plausible theory amongst many with muddy evidence. It makes explicit, specific claims about the nature of the universe and those claims not only can be verified, they are explicitly so in any setting that has signed up for it. The Great Wheel is hegemonic; it excludes any planar cosmology that disagrees with it. That's why it had to absorb and implement the Feywild and convert the Plane of Shadow into the Shadowfell; it would deny the existence of those planes if they weren't incorporated into the structure.

Repeatedly what I see here is you taking an extreme viewpoint that only allows one interpretation. You are dealing in absolutes, I am not. I see cosmology as mythology that allows many interpretations. The things you claim are empirical facts simply are not from my point of view. We are not going to see eye to eye on this and though I prefer the World Axis (for reasons previously stated) I still maintain that it is, along with the Great Wheel and World Tree, just a reflection or refraction or interpretation of the same cosmological order (and that works perfectly well in my campaign).

 

[Staffan]

Not sure that is true, and it definitely doesn't need to be true. However, even if it is true what is the issue with that? It is not only creatures or actions of a given alignment need to occur on a give plane. They are not uniform.

Part of the issue is that alignment in itself is a bad thing, and anything that enforces it on the cosmological structure is equally bad. Plus, it is a matter of box-checking. The lower planes likely originate in Gygax taking out a thesaurus and looking up synonyms for "hell", with Jeff Grubb then adding some actual content to those planes.

I mean both Greek and Norse mythology have verifiable afterlives, but that didn't stop people from being people!

They did? Where are the verifiable (i.e. non-mythical) accounts of people visiting The Elysian Fields, Hades, Asgard, or Hel?