D&D (2024) DMG 2024: The Planes

[MonsterEnvy]

How can you "train" new dungeon masters without talking extensively about dungeons and hexploration -- two things that are significantly more common than planar adventures.

What makes you think that is more common than the planes, Dungeons are talked about too as is exploration. Dungeons don’t need too much explanation cause they are fairly simple.

What do you think is missing from the explanations of Dungeons?

 

[Reynard]

What makes you think that is more common than the planes,

Experience.

Dungeons are talked about too as is exploration. Dungeons don’t need too much explanation cause they are fairly simple.

It is strange that you think that someone with no experience with D&D will magically know how to build a good dungeon by, what, intuition?

What do you think is missing from the explanations of Dungeons?

At the very least, a sample map in the dungeon section explaining how to use it and stock it. You know, like is in the 2014 DMG and every DMG before it. The sample adventures are laughable in that regard: they literally tell the (assumed to be completely inexperienced) DM to modify the map to make it better fit the plot. Not show them how, not give them maps, just offhandedly say it.

I don't know why this is a controversial opinion other that people getting their backs up anytime anyone suggests WotC did not do it perfectly. The 2024 PHB and DMG both have serious organizational issues, and the DMG while doing a very good job of explaining play and the DM's job fails to explain the most basic unit of D&D adventure design: the dungeon.

 

[Shardstone]

Building a dungeon is flatout old fashion. Most people start with an interesting location and maybe a couple of areas at each location. This is also how the starter sets are; they give you some easy locations to start off with. Why? Once you've learned how to run a location, you now know how to run a series of "rooms," as each location is made of sub-locations. From that point, creating a dungeon is basically just creating a connected series of "rooms."

Technical dungeon aspects, like traps, secret passageways, etc are intuitive ideas pretty easy to grasp. Likewise, visual aspects like jaquaying a dungeon aren't necessary to for a good starter dungeon. But even then, building a full, OSR-style dungeon is just not something a lot of homebrew DMs do. I'm drawing this data not just from social media and WotC, but also from my own anecdotes. I'm in a pretty large group of players -- over 30 people. We divide up into different games that go for different lengths (few weeks, few months) and rearrange based on who wants to do what at the time. We also have a lot of players ranging from lower 20s to 50s. What I've learned here is that, dungeons just don't appear a lot. Not traditional dungeons, I mean. There's just so much more fantasy to explore then dungeons IMO.

Now, the game is called Dungeons & Dragons. But IMO the real truth is, anything can be a dungeon so long as it has rooms and connectors, and any monster can fit in for the "dragon" role. So despite the name, classical dungeon building is just not that popular anymore. Nor is it necessary to play D&D.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Building a dungeon is flatout old fashion. Most people start with an interesting location and maybe a couple of areas at each location. This is also how the starter sets are; they give you some easy locations to start off with. Why? Once you've learned how to run a location, you now know how to run a series of "rooms," as each location is made of sub-locations. From that point, creating a dungeon is basically just creating a connected series of "rooms."

Technical dungeon aspects, like traps, secret passageways, etc are intuitive ideas pretty easy to grasp. Likewise, visual aspects like jaquaying a dungeon aren't necessary to for a good starter dungeon. But even then, building a full, OSR-style dungeon is just not something a lot of homebrew DMs do. I'm drawing this data not just from social media and WotC, but also from my own anecdotes. I'm in a pretty large group of players -- over 30 people. We divide up into different games that go for different lengths (few weeks, few months) and rearrange based on who wants to do what at the time. We also have a lot of players ranging from lower 20s to 50s. What I've learned here is that, dungeons just don't appear a lot. Not traditional dungeons, I mean. There's just so much more fantasy to explore then dungeons IMO.

Now, the game is called Dungeons & Dragons. But IMO the real truth is, anything can be a dungeon so long as it has rooms and connectors, and any monster can fit in for the "dragon" role. So despite the name, classical dungeon building is just not that popular anymore. Nor is it necessary to play D&D.

While all of that is true, there is nothing wrong with old-fashioned. It's not as implied something to be disdained or avoided just because other options are available.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

There's just so much more fantasy to explore then dungeons IMO

This. But dungeons are easy mode, making it easy to limit and direct the players without obvious rails.

 

[Shardstone]

While all of that is true, there is nothing wrong with old-fashioned. It's not as implied something to be disdained or avoided just because other options are available.

I did not attach a value to old-fashioned, my friend. I enjoy dungeons as well. I actually am working on an all-dungeon adventure right now. But it is indeed old-fashion.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I did not attach a value to old-fashioned, my friend. I enjoy dungeons as well. I actually am working on an all-dungeon adventure right now. But it is indeed old-fashion.

Ok. What is the point of bringing it up then, if you attach no value, positive or negative, to the term? I'm not trying to antagonize you, but I really don't get it.

 

[Shardstone]

Ok. What is the point of bringing it up then, if you attach no value, positive or negative, to the term? I'm not trying to antagonize you, but I really don't get it.

That it's not a necessary skill for most people to learn or be taught.

 

[Reynard]

Building a dungeon is flatout old fashion. Most people start with an interesting location and maybe a couple of areas at each location. This is also how the starter sets are; they give you some easy locations to start off with. Why? Once you've learned how to run a location, you now know how to run a series of "rooms," as each location is made of sub-locations. From that point, creating a dungeon is basically just creating a connected series of "rooms."

Technical dungeon aspects, like traps, secret passageways, etc are intuitive ideas pretty easy to grasp. Likewise, visual aspects like jaquaying a dungeon aren't necessary to for a good starter dungeon. But even then, building a full, OSR-style dungeon is just not something a lot of homebrew DMs do. I'm drawing this data not just from social media and WotC, but also from my own anecdotes. I'm in a pretty large group of players -- over 30 people. We divide up into different games that go for different lengths (few weeks, few months) and rearrange based on who wants to do what at the time. We also have a lot of players ranging from lower 20s to 50s. What I've learned here is that, dungeons just don't appear a lot. Not traditional dungeons, I mean. There's just so much more fantasy to explore then dungeons IMO.

Now, the game is called Dungeons & Dragons. But IMO the real truth is, anything can be a dungeon so long as it has rooms and connectors, and any monster can fit in for the "dragon" role. So despite the name, classical dungeon building is just not that popular anymore. Nor is it necessary to play D&D.

No one said anything about big OSR style dungeons.

The 2014 DMG did a much better job with dungeons, hands down. Combined with the 2014 Starter Set, it guarantees new DMs understand how to effectively use dungeons in larger adventures.

It will be interesting to see what the new Starter Set looks like. I'm still shocked that they did not make sure it was out with the core rules.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The 2014 DMG did a much better job with dungeons, hands down

I don’t recall anything particularly helpful about dungeons in the 2014, what are you thinking of exactly? There is stuff on traps and hazards, is that not in the 2024 DMG?