Star Trek and Idealism vs cynicism

[Ryujin]

Also is anyone else having a weird time working with the quote function today?

Many things have been a bit glitchy, post recent update. Seems better at the moment.

 

[MarkB]

It is like making the rogue death squad cops in Dirty Harry: Magnum Force the good guys

To be fair, though, the Section 31 of this movie is not the Section 31 of DS9. They are not infiltrating higher levels of various societies, they are not proactively seeking to destabilise other nations based upon the potential for them to pose a threat to the Federation, and they are not throwing morality to the wind when it comes to deciding what lengths to go to in the pursuit of their goals. They were, in fact, seeking to save the galaxy using tactics that most Star Trek shows' protagonists wouldn't have any significant problem resorting to.

Obviously we're only seeing a small part of the organisation in this story, but this really does feel like Section 31 in name only.

 

[jian]

To be fair, though, the Section 31 of this movie is not the Section 31 of DS9. They are not infiltrating higher levels of various societies, they are not proactively seeking to destabilise other nations based upon the potential for them to pose a threat to the Federation, and they are not throwing morality to the wind when it comes to deciding what lengths to go to in the pursuit of their goals. They were, in fact, seeking to save the galaxy using tactics that most Star Trek shows' protagonists wouldn't have any significant problem resorting to.

Obviously we're only seeing a small part of the organisation in this story, but this really does feel like Section 31 in name only.

Yes, while it mostly sounds like a not very good movie, it also sounds like ST’s equivalent of the Special Operations Executive (SOE, AKA “the department of dirty tricks” or “the ministry of ungentlemanly warfare”), a ragtag group of amateurs put together by the British government in WW2 to basically throw stuff at the wall and see what stuck.

They mostly did resistance and partisan support behind enemy lines - radio operators and weapons drops to resistance organisations, that sort of thing - and they also had an ungodly high casualty rate. Many SOE survivors helped form the Special Intelligence Service (SIS, the actual name for what many still call MI6, the external intelligence agency of the UK) after the war and brought the same spirit of whatever works (and an unhealthy dose of survivor’s guilt) to that organisation. The equivalent in the US was the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) which was similar but much better funded, and which basically became the CIA after the war.

The thing is, the spirit of “do whatever it takes” was somewhat more justified against the Nazis in WW2, and both organisations very rapidly became terrible people doing terrible things as soon as that no longer applied. So having Section 31 follow the same path is historically accurate and interesting, but I’m not sure I need to see it. A tragic story of desperate amateurs doing whatever it takes against an overwhelming existential threat (no idea who those guys would be) and then being corrupted by their power and lack of accountability before being quietly eradicated by Starfleet and all but forgotten before gradually reforming in the TNG era sounds interesting but I really don’t want to watch it. I also don’t want it to be led by Empress Georgiou, that’s basically the Gehlen organisation.

 

[GreyLord]

It is like making the rogue death squad cops in Dirty Harry: Magnum Force the good guys

Naw, I'd say it's more like making James Bond the good guy (though, in theory, though a fictional character, he actually does far far worse than anything we've seen Section 31 do at times).

 

[jian]

Naw, I'd say it's more like making James Bond the good guy (though, in theory, though a fictional character, he actually does far far worse than anything we've seen Section 31 do at times).

There’s a whole lot to say about Bond, especially if you’ve read the books, but it boils down to: James Bond isn’t a spy, he’s barely even an assassin, he’s a human hand grenade. As a government, you throw him to send a message, and that message is FAFO. He hates himself and despises his country, he knows he’s a terrible person who’s only good at doing one thing.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Naw, I'd say it's more like making James Bond the good guy (though, in theory, though a fictional character, he actually does far far worse than anything we've seen Section 31 do at times).

I was being a bit facetious but James Bond actually does a number of things I wouldn't expect Star Trek characters to do. My point wasn't you can't have that in movies or in science fiction. I like 24 for example and Jack Bauer does some pretty horrendous things. And the first Dirty Harry movie, Harry does a lot of questionable things in the name of the greater good. But again, I think that style, even if it is just at the James Bond level of shadiness, while perfectly at home in James Bond, feels out of place for me in Star Trek.

 

[Ryujin]

I was being a bit facetious but James Bond actually does a number of things I wouldn't expect Star Trek characters to do. My point wasn't you can't have that in movies or in science fiction. I like 24 for example and Jack Bauer does some pretty horrendous things. And the first Dirty Harry movie, Harry does a lot of questionable things in the name of the greater good. But again, I think that style, even if it is just at the James Bond level of shadiness, while perfectly at home in James Bond, feels out of place for me in Star Trek.

Yeah, The Federation doesn't exactly support the concept of anti-heroes.

 

[MGibster]

One could argue that while some of the Federation's citizens (like our heroic mains) definitely believe in the idealism Star Trek is known for and fight for it at every opportunity, others, in many cases high-ranking folks with a lot of power, either believe in the "hard men" theory we've been discussing, or more likely are simply to prioritize their own safety and the safety of their lives ones. There are plenty of examples of this throughout Trek, including several examples in TNG.

Given the high ratio of villainous admirals in Star Fleet, I think you're on to something.

I would expect the Federation to have an intelligence agency of some sort. Someone cooked up the idea for the Enterprise to veer into the Neutral Zone and steal a Romulan cloaking device. You can have an intelligence agency like the CIA, FBI, (our main counter intelligence agency here in the United States) or even the National Security Agency and they can engage in skullduggery from time-to-time that doesn't involving overthrowing elections because it's politically convenient.

 

[MarkB]

Given the high ratio of villainous admirals in Star Fleet, I think you're on to something.

I would expect the Federation to have an intelligence agency of some sort. Someone cooked up the idea for the Enterprise to veer into the Neutral Zone and steal a Romulan cloaking device. You can have an intelligence agency like the CIA, FBI, (our main counter intelligence agency here in the United States) or even the National Security Agency and they can engage in skullduggery from time-to-time that doesn't involving overthrowing elections because it's politically convenient.

Starfleet Intelligence is a thing. They're considered a bit of a joke by the Romulan Tal Shiar and Cardassian Obsidian Order (but on the other hand they didn't get suckered into wiping themselves out by the Dominion). They seem a little under-funded - at one point the commandeer Miles O'Brien into a deep-cover operation despite him having no significant espionage training.

 

[Smackpixi]

Not seen the movie, Just thought I’d pipe up about the Aeschylus quote. Probably a way to obliquely reference the Kennedys, another image vs reality situation. It’s a pretty obscure guy to drop, but RFK was a huge fan and quoted all the time.

Edit: Also, if you look into the meaning of the quote, I think the EnWorlders hating on the movie would kinda like it. Sorta implies that nothing anyone does in the movie matters, or was helpful to the Federation cause, the larger outcomes would be the same without them.