D&D (2024) Thoughts on Stealth and D&D2024

[Parmandur]

I’m not making any argument to the contrary. I’m saying most reasonable people have an intuitive expectation that a magic spell called invisibility would make you transparent, and hiding behind a tree would not, and the rules as written do not meet that intuitive expectation.

Maybe it would have been better if they called the condition "Hidden" or "non-visible"

 

[MerricB]

The word invisible does actually not imply anything magical or supernatural in natural language, it means "not bisible" and can mean quite mundane hiddeness. Genre expectations in Fantasy do tens to Amp thst up, I suppose.

Not bisible! I know where I've gone wrong now!

5e.2014 (PHB p177) had the following advice: "In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen." Again, not automatic but not impossible.

Yeah, and if the 2024 rules had that text, I'd feel a lot better. They don't. And it's a subject that warranted further discussion in the 2024 DMG.

The fact is that there are systems - like Pathfinder 2 - that have better text covering it. Here's the PF2 Hide skill:

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HIDE (PF2)
You huddle behind cover or greater cover or deeper into concealment to become hidden, rather than observed. The GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you're observed by but that you have cover or greater cover against or are concealed from. You get a +2 circumstance bonus to your check if you have standard cover (or +4 from greater cover).

Success If the creature could see you, you're now hidden from it instead of observed. If you were hidden from or undetected by the creature, you retain that condition.

If you successfully become hidden to a creature but then cease to have cover or greater cover against it or be concealed from it, you become observed again. You cease being hidden if you do anything except Hide, Sneak, or Step. If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains off-guard against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just before you act unless the GM determines otherwise. The GM might allow you to perform a particularly unobtrusive action without being noticed, possibly requiring another Stealth check.

If a creature uses Seek to make you observed by it, you must successfully Hide to become hidden from it again.
####

Now, PF2 has really gone deep with the rules (different states of observed, hidden and undetected) and those aren't really necessary for 5E (much though I like them), but there's a lot of grey in 5E about how a DM should resolve it. Which, when you move from table to table, can cause disconnect.

 

[Parmandur]

but there's a lot of grey in 5E about how a DM should resolve it.

I mean, that seems to be largely.the point, as with most Skill checks...? Rulings, not rules.

 

[Charlaquin]

Maybe it would have been better if they called the condition "Hidden" or "non-visible"

The name of the condition isn’t the problem. The problem is that people have different intuitive expectations about the results of the two most common sources of the condition, yet neither the condition itself nor those two sources explicitly define what happens when someone directly looks at you while under its effects.

 

[Parmandur]

The name of the condition isn’t the problem. The problem is that people have different intuitive expectations about the results of the two most common sources of the condition, yet neither the condition itself nor those two sources explicitly define what happens when someone directly looks at you while under its effects.

A creature under the magical Illusion of the Invisibility Spell has the Invisible condition that "ends early immediately after the target makes an attack roll, deals damage, or casts a spell", while someone who has the Invisible condition from mundane hiding should be covered by common sense DM rulings. Doesn't seem thwt difficult in practice.

 

[MerricB]

Maybe it would have been better if they called the condition "Hidden" or "non-visible"

Well, it was called that (Hidden) until they decided to change it during the playtest.

 

[Parmandur]

Well, it was called that (Hidden) until they decided to change it during the playtest.

Interesting point.

 

[MerricB]

A creature under the magical Illusion of the Invisibility Spell has the Invisible condition that "ends early immediately after the target makes an attack roll, deals damage, or casts a spell", while someone who has the Invisible condition from mundane hiding should be covered by common sense DM rulings. Doesn't seem thwt difficult in practice.

If a hidden character approaches a monster while there's mist about (lightly obscured), does their hidden state automatically end, require an active Search action, or rely on passive Perception to end?

It's that sort of in-between area that I'd rather like better rules for.

 

[MerricB]

Interesting point.

They changed it during the playtest and (from what I've read in the Big Stealth Thread) then never took feedback about the change.

(The reason this thread exists is partly because I just noticed the interaction, and partly because the full rules weren't out back then!)

Cheers!

 

[Ebony Dragon]

Yeah, and if the 2024 rules had that text, I'd feel a lot better. They don't. And it's a subject that warranted further discussion in the 2024 DMG.

The fact is that there are systems - like Pathfinder 2 - that have better text covering it. Here's the PF2 Hide skill:

I'm not familiar with PF2, but reading these rules it sounds like it would be impossible to hide from someone and then move out of cover to backstab them during a fight... which makes me not like those rules at all. Stealth needed a buff for the sake of rogues, and the fantasy of being the sneaky attacker. I'm glad 2024 is more permissive here. If it takes the invisible condition for them to let it work then so be it.