D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[EzekielRaiden]

You can nerf magic heavily, like how it works in most other systems, and you could have something workable to fit both players in.

Another option is to play low level only, which would also fit both players in.

The key understanding is that the character the second player wants to play is actually a low level character.

Or, I mean, if we accept that there can be supernatural things that aren't magic--which, as stated, Beowulf explicitly contains, as did Greco-Roman/Norse/Chinese/Mesopotamian myth, European folklore, and God knows what else besides--then suddenly we don't have a game that says to some sizable chunk of its player base, "Oh, sorry, the thing you want to play is for low-level characters only...guess you'll just have to play something else!"

 

[Joshua Randall]

You can nerf magic heavily,

I see. So I can tell the first player, Magic McMagic, that he can't have fun. Cool.

like how it works in most other systems

"Most" other systems? Care to [citation needed] that claim?

you could have something workable to fit both players in.

How, though? What system accomplishes my goal to have both Magic McMagic and Normal Guy played at my table, both having fun, at the same time?

Another option is to play low level only, which would also fit both players in.

I see. So Magic McMagic can shoot darts of force from his fingers that can curve around corners and kill someone, or he can use a fan of flames that can kill multiple people and set things on fire, or he can wink and charm you, or he can say "talk to the hand" and make someone grovel in place, or he can touch you and cause wounds to open dealing enough damage to kill THREE people, or make a blast of thunder that sends people flying.

Meanwhile Normal Guy can... do what, exactly? I'm unclear what my Normal Guy is allowed to do that isn't considered magic.

The key understanding is that the character the second player wants to play is actually a low level character.

I see! So at high levels, Normal Guy transcends normality and becomes magical?

Yeah I think the best way to do this is to just make Fighter a completely level 1-3 only class.

So what happens when my campaign reaches level 4? What class does Normal Guy multiclass into, that isn't magical? Because remember, he is UTTERLY OPPOSED to magic.

Everyone else that wants magical stuff gets to have it

Cool, so all my magic-lovin' peeps get to have as much fun as they want.

What about Normal Guy? Your answer is:

--if that guy dies or doesn;t have fun, it's their problem for picking something not magical.

Ah, the mask is off. It's the player's fault for not having fun by being stupid enough to want to eschew magic. Got it!

"Oh, sorry, the thing you want to play is for low-level characters only...guess you'll just have to play something else!"

That does seem to be the genuine proposal here. I'm glad we exposed it.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

Or, I mean, if we accept that there can be supernatural things that aren't magic--which, as stated, Beowulf explicitly contains, as did Greco-Roman/Norse/Chinese/Mesopotamian myth, European folklore, and God knows what else besides--then suddenly we don't have a game that says to some sizable chunk of its player base, "Oh, sorry, the thing you want to play is for low-level characters only...guess you'll just have to play something else!"

Yes I would normally agree, but the second player seems intent on wanting to play someone who can't actually do anything much.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

Yeah I think the best way to do this is to just make Fighter a completely level 1-3 only class. Everyone else that wants magical stuff gets to have it--if that guy dies or doesn;t have fun, it's their problem for picking something not magical.

Personally, I'd prefer if we didn't care about the second player at all.

Because I want to be able to play awesome martials who don't use magic but who are still competent and influential.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yes I would normally agree, but the second player seems intent on wanting to play someone who can't actually do anything much.

I mean, I would see it as "okay...what do you consider to be non-magic, that is still fantastical?"

Because the point of playing D&D is to play fantastical heroes. Whether they started from zero or not, whether they're Just Totally Ordinary Dudes And Anyone Else Could've Done The Exact Same Things or Absolutely Not Normal Dudes In The Slightest, whether they're gods among men or mice among lions, it's a fantastical setting with people facing beyond-normal dangers and, with wit and skill and grace, somehow managing to overcome them nonetheless, or at least going out in a blaze of glory, even if no one will ever know, or see.

Even Gygax's gritty, amoral (verging into immoral!), selfish, backstabbing, money-grubbing, never-fight-fair, always-exploit-every-loophole style was still fantastical "heroes", it was just heroes more in the Greco-Roman sense than in the chivalric romance sense.

And if they really, truly, explicitly just want to play a dirt-farmer from Terracolonium who farms dirt...then they don't even want to play a low-level character. They don't want to play D&D. The thing D&D is, the thing it has always been even across all the editions and all the stylistic shifts and all of that, is courageous people facing dangers too great for most men and hoping they'll come out on top. Some editions have made that extraordinarily unlikely, such that you play dozens or hundreds of characters before you get one successful one. Others have made this experience the bread-and-butter and aren't really interested in forcing players to "earn" fun gameplay. Others still have said "let us take care of the back end; your choices will be what makes the front end end up like that" (to varying degrees of success).

Adventuring into the murder-holes and crumbling edifices and blighted lands, hoping to win something (fame, glory, riches, justice, influence, knowledge, whatever), is and has always been an essential part of the D&D experience. A player who does not want even the tiniest little bit of that is a player who doesn't want to play D&D. I'm not sure if there are RPGs out there that would truly cater to their preferences, but I wish them much luck in finding something which suits their tastes.

 

[GobHag]

Ah, the mask is off. It's the player's fault for not having fun by being stupid enough to want to eschew magic. Got it!

Yep! It's the most verisimilitudiness and most realistic thing(and I"m being very generous actually!) to have the normal, unpowered underdog... to be underpowered and an underdog. Everyone is happy! They get to mull over over having to carry a torch or a length of ripe while I can teleport choke-slam every skeleton in a mile-wide radius!

 

[BrokenTwin]

"Most" other systems? Care to [citation needed] that claim?

While I generally agree with you, I do feel the need to point out that systems like Fate-derived and PBTA systems handle "supremely magical guy" and "ordinary dude" in the same group relatively well, since the system focuses less on in-world differences than narrative control mechanically.

But if you're looking for a D&D-style tactical combat system? Yeah, no idea how you'd square that circle.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yep! It's the most verisimilitudiness and most realistic thing(and I"m being very generous actually!) to have the normal, unpowered underdog... to be underpowered and an underdog. Everyone is happy! They get to mull over over having to carry a torch or a length of ripe while I can teleport choke-slam every skeleton in a mile-wide radius!

I...don't think you are being as generous as you think you are being.

And, as stated, I personally don't think this player wants to play D&D. There are certain PbtA games I've heard of that are kind of in this direction, where you are making like a homestead sort of thing? That's a game where a character like that could make perfect sense, someone with the goal of settling down and getting away from all this ridiculous fantastical nonsense so they can live a quietly successful life on their farm. A more common-man flavor of Cincinnatus.

 

[Remathilis]

Part of my issue whenever this conversation comes up is exactly what the badass normal is supposed to be doing that isn't supernatural. You can give a fighter 20 attacks per round and he's still hosed when the wizard casts fly and buggers off. What then? The fighter can fly too? Wuxia! The wizard can't fly? That's magic 101! You're always going to the up with the normal dude left behind as long as one gets to break the rules.
Or put another way

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

It becomes very difficult to reply if you don't cite the entire post or leave things out and cut the quotes apart too much.

I see. So I can tell the first player, Magic McMagic, that he can't have fun. Cool.

I never said he can't have fun. What you need is to make sure that the system isn't as over the top with magic as it currently is.

The quantity of magic and the power of magic are not the same things.

"Most" other systems? Care to [citation needed] that claim?

D&D is weird in that is has a lot of magic that is very much without risk.

ICON, Mörk Borg, Call of Cthulhu, Dragonbane, PF2 (to a lesser extent), Blades in the Dark, are a few systems with more restricted magic.

How, though? What system accomplishes my goal to have both Magic McMagic and Normal Guy played at my table, both having fun, at the same time?

That depends entirely on what you mean with Normal Guy.

The two characters, to me, sound completely incompatible. One player wants to play a demigod-wizard and the other player wants to play a commoner.

I see. So Magic McMagic can shoot darts of force from his fingers that can curve around corners and kill someone, or he can use a fan of flames that can kill multiple people and set things on fire, or he can wink and charm you, or he can say "talk to the hand" and make someone grovel in place, or he can touch you and cause wounds to open dealing enough damage to kill THREE people, or make a blast of thunder that sends people flying.

Meanwhile Normal Guy can... do what, exactly? I'm unclear what my Normal Guy is allowed to do that isn't considered magic.

I'm not sure here what's even being argued.

My point is that D&D is fundamentally badly designed, because high level martial characters are highly restricted in many ways, while casters are overpowered.

I see! So at high levels, Normal Guy transcends normality and becomes magical?

Are we talking a hypothetical here?

I'm saying that a "Normal Guy", if you mean "Realistic" is a commoner.

The problem with the hypothetical second player in your scenario is that not only does he want to play a character who does not want to use magic, he wants to also be "mundane" as in as "realistic". We are now in Guy-At-The-Gym territory or even BMX-Bandit and Angel Summoner.

So what happens when my campaign reaches level 4? What class does Normal Guy multiclass into, that isn't magical? Because remember, he is UTTERLY OPPOSED to magic.

You either stop leveling for that particular player, for all players, or use a slower leveling system from the beginning.

Cool, so all my magic-lovin' peeps get to have as much fun as they want.

What about Normal Guy? Your answer is:

Ah, the mask is off. It's the player's fault for not having fun by being stupid enough to want to eschew magic. Got it!

So you're not replying to me here, but I want to fill in with my opinion.

The real problem here is that D&D makes it so that magical characters are more competent than non-magical characters. Wanting to play a non-magical character you have to accept to play a worse class.

The fix is obviously to make martials more competent, but it'll take a while until we have a viable high level non-magical martial.