D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[Aldarc]

I don't think I will, thanks. Might check out this "Shadowdark" thing though. Always good to read a little more, even if it doesn't end up giving you what you want.

You may also want to check out Grimwild.

 

[Joshua Randall]

people who don't play a game but REPEATEDLY have to jump into every conversation to tell everyone how bad the game is, over and over and over again.

Brother, this is the internet. If people who know nothing about a topic but repeatedly jump into tell the rest of us that we're doing it wrong were to stop jumping in, the internet would grind to a halt. And we can't have THAT.

 

[Remathilis]

But there are things that aren't magic that are still supernatural. Which is my whole point. "Magic" is not 1:1 synonymous with "supernatural." Some supernatural things are not magic. All magic is supernatural.

No matter how broad or narrow you decide to fill the category of "magic", there will always be things you could make that aren't magic, but are still beyond the natural.

3e called them [Ex] abilities. They could do things beyond what was normally possible, like outright hiding in plain sight, and yet nothing that affects or interacts with magic could affect such a thing. 3e did very few things right, but the recognition of [Ex] abilities was one of them.

"Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that suppress or negate magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities."

Even so, Ex abilities didn't cleave mountains or divert rivers. I think that's where you lose people. Action Surge is extraordinary. Rage is Extraordinary. Evasion is Extraordinary. Stunning Fist is extraordinary bordering on supernatural. The concept is not lost on D&D. You get less buy in the farther though you push that boundary towards overt supernatural acts. Now, if you want to say that the Fighter (et al) also use a supernatural power source to do supernatural things, you are on the right track. The barbarian rage and monk's ki/focus are already called out as being almost supernatural. Every other class gets some sort of magic to explain their non-spell abilities as well. You just need the fighter and rogue to pick up some supernatural/transmundane origin of their abilities and you are off to the races.

 

[nevin]

When 5E came out in 2014, some people bemoaned that the best parts of 4E hadn't been brought forward.

Well, it's now ten years later. And guess what? Bloodied is back. Martials have weapon masteries that give them at-will powers. Many monsters impose conditions on a hit.

My hot take is that the biggest changes to 5E in the 2024 version are mostly borrowed from 4E.

What do you think?

getting the danger vs heroic craziness right has been a running target , which has never ever been actually agreed on so yeah. They've done that, they'll at some point borrow from 3rd or even 2nd or other games again in the future. If the game stops changing only the new players need books and then there is no reason for the big companies to print books or sell PDF's. I at this point almost wish DND would collapse in on itself and become a niche again so some small company could pay a group of Dev's to not change the rules to sell books but go back to selling modules and dice and campaign settings etc. again. I thought if the movies took off Hasbro might just freeze dnd and start making it like their other games just something else they sell but seems they'll tinker away until they do something that craters the game or some other game takes it's place.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Even so, Ex abilities didn't cleave mountains or divert rivers. I think that's where you lose people. Action Surge is extraordinary. Rage is Extraordinary. Evasion is Extraordinary. Stunning Fist is extraordinary bordering on supernatural. The concept is not lost on D&D. You get less buy in the farther though you push that boundary towards overt supernatural acts. Now, if you want to say that the Fighter (et al) also use a supernatural power source to do supernatural things, you are on the right track. The barbarian rage and monk's ki/focus are already called out as being almost supernatural. Every other class gets some sort of magic to explain their non-spell abilities as well. You just need the fighter and rogue to pick up some supernatural/transmundane origin of their abilities and you are off to the races.

training, training is the explanation of the origin of their extraordinary abilities, after all, that's all the wizard did, except they trained a different part of their body.

magic is the quick and easy path to power, but these guys, the fighter and the rogue? they took the slow and hard path, they trained their bodies, they studied their methods and sword forms, they practised their techniques and sneaking skills, and at the end of it? they got their power, abilities as good as any magic using adventurer out there, and they earned it.

 

[Remathilis]

training, training is the explanation of the origin of their extraordinary abilities, after all, that's all the wizard did, except they trained a different part of their body.

magic is the quick and easy path to power, but these guys, the fighter and the rogue? they took the slow and hard path, they trained their bodies, they studied their methods and sword forms, they practised their techniques and sneaking skills, and at the end of it? they got their power, abilities as good as any magic using adventurer out there, and they earned it.

Training doesn't let you throw mountains. No amount of training gives you True Resurrection or Wish. If you are going with "non-supernatural explanation" you are always going to get boxed in. I'd rather concede the "nonmagical/nonsupernatural martial" space to the "supernatural, but not magical" space and then open the floodgates than have diverting a river be totally within the realms of possible if you pray, train, and take your vitamins.

 

[Scribe]

training, training is the explanation of the origin of their extraordinary abilities, after all, that's all the wizard did, except they trained a different part of their body.

magic is the quick and easy path to power, but these guys, the fighter and the rogue? they took the slow and hard path, they trained their bodies, they studied their methods and sword forms, they practised their techniques and sneaking skills, and at the end of it? they got their power, abilities as good as any magic using adventurer out there, and they earned it.

And this weird exceptionalism is what rubs some of us the wrong way.

 

[GobHag]

I prefer if training does give me the ability to throw mountains

Or less hyperbolically, I want a level 15 rogue to get 'treat the first 15ft of your movement as if you were teleporting'

 

[I'm A Banana]

training, training is the explanation of the origin of their extraordinary abilities, after all, that's all the wizard did, except they trained a different part of their body.

magic is the quick and easy path to power, but these guys, the fighter and the rogue? they took the slow and hard path, they trained their bodies, they studied their methods and sword forms, they practised their techniques and sneaking skills, and at the end of it? they got their power, abilities as good as any magic using adventurer out there, and they earned it.

Angel Summoner / BMX Bandit. The power to swing a sword REAL GOOD will never really be equal to the power of being able to literally make your wish come true once a day. Training doesn't let you transcend dimensions.

I always wonder what would've happened if magic items followed the same arc for fighters that spells followed for mages. As D&D went on, the ability to pick specific spells and the guarantee to learn them and to cast them became more and more reliable - a part of the mage's skill set. Magic items began primarily as a Fighter thing (via their equipment proficiencies). I imagine a D&D version where belts of giant strength and flametongues and invisibility rings and the like aren't distributed to everyone, but are a guaranteed, reliable part of a fighter's skill set, where fighter players get to pick and choose magical equipment that is an assumed part of a fighter's power.

It'd be a pretty dramatic change to 5e's assumptions, but it's something that keeps popping into my head when these conversations come up. If the BMX Bandit has a bike that can teleport and fly and shoot lasers and ride independently and whose tire air can raise the dead or whatever, the gap definitely shrinks.

If owning a sword that could slice between the planes and a shield that raised the dead and an amulet that granted wishes was part of your class options as a martial character, you get a little closer to the mage in terms of capability. Spells on one side, magic equipment on the other.

 

[Scribe]

Training doesn't let you transcend dimensions.

I always wonder what would've happened if magic items followed the same arc for fighters that spells followed for mages. As D&D went on, the ability to pick specific spells and the guarantee to learn them and to cast them became more and more reliable - a part of the mage's skill set. Magic items began primarily as a Fighter thing (via their equipment proficiencies). I imagine a D&D version where belts of giant strength and flametongues and invisibility rings and the like aren't distributed to everyone, but are a guaranteed, reliable part of a fighter's skill set, where fighter players get to pick and choose magical equipment that is an assumed part of a fighter's power.

It'd be a pretty dramatic change to 5e's assumptions, but it's something that keeps popping into my head when these conversations come up. If the BMX Bandit has a bike that can teleport and fly and shoot lasers and ride independently and whose tire air can raise the dead or whatever, the gap definitely shrinks.

If owning a sword that could slice between the planes and a shield that raised the dead and an amulet that granted wishes was part of your class options as a martial character, you get a little closer to the mage in terms of capability. Spells on one side, magic equipment on the other.

This is the answer.