D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[Clint_L]

Are we now going to assert that Conan is a totally normal dude who could’ve existed in our real-world Earth, and that Conan never transcended human limits in any way?

Because that is LUDICROUS.

I’m going to assert that Conan can’t sunder mountains and leap rivers and doesn’t have innate magical abilities. I’m going to assert that he isn’t a literal demigod, which was the suggestion to which I was specifically responding.

But yes, the straw man claim you have constructed is LUDICROUS. Good work, I guess?

If you want to respond to my actual arguments, feel free.

 

[dave2008]

It's only an issue if it's not accounted for, say with Magic Items.

So the point at which you need magic items then. When would that be do you think?

 

[dave2008]

I still think stuff like that should be subject to antimagic effects.

I haven't decided myself (and don't remember 5e's stance), but I tend to agree with you. The problem I see with anti-magic in a fantasy world is magic is everywhere. Most monsters are magical to some extent: a giant would collapse under its own weight without magic, centaurs would probably just die, rocs would fall from the sky, etc. So it becomes a bit OP. I guess if used sparingly it can work.

 

[dave2008]

I think we have a misunderstanding. My point was levels 11+ should be supernatural. You need some supernatural sauce to even achieve level 11. The limits of an earth-centric power is level 10.

The answer you provide is essentially my concern with this system. If everyone is able to do impossible things with sufficient time and devotion, then the world should be full of people doing impossible things. Not everyone, but lots of them. If we say not everyone has the spark needed to reach that level, then we have to say why. Is it genetics, magical aptitude, supernatural blessing? Why are some able and other not?

We see enormous variability in capabilities in RL without magic / supernatural. I don't see what that would be different in a magic / supernatural setting as well.

Again, my idea is that level 10 is the peak of natural (earth-centric) human ability. However, that doesn't mean everyone is a level 10. In fact, most people are level 0 and advancement gets less and less until you have probably something like .01% of the population (just spit balling) at level 10, maybe less. Those with supernatural power follow a similar curve, but can progress past level 10. For example in my current setting, the PCS are the most powerful humanoids at level 15. The next closest is a level 12 cleric.

 

[Remathilis]

I’m going to assert that Conan can’t sunder mountains and leap rivers and doesn’t have innate magical abilities. I’m going to assert that he isn’t a literal demigod, which was the suggestion to which I was specifically responding.

But yes, the straw man claim you have constructed is LUDICROUS. Good work, I guess?

If you want to respond to my actual arguments, feel free.

Part of what happens in these arguments time and time again is that nobody is defining what the upper level of these mythic martials can do. We get vague allusions to characters with different abilities, but no real limits.

* On the lower end, you have Hawkeye. Peak human athlete, expert marksman, Avenger. But nearly all his abilities are within human bounds. The 5e martials I feel capture that level well.

* Then you have Captain America. Super soldier via serum. Above human peak, but not overly so. He's stronger, faster, more durable, and has enhanced senses. Still, he's not breaking the laws of physics with his abilities, but he bends them ever so slightly.

* At the high end, you have Superman. Alien powered by the sun. Impossibly strong. Resistant to most normal weapons. X-ray vision, hearing across the world. Flight. Super speed. Frost breath, heat vision. Cunning intellect. So far above mortals he can be likened to a God.

Clearly, there are other layers in between, this is not an all the nothing, but it kinda defines the low, middle, and high.

Where do we put the epic fighter? For some, Hawkeye is the limit. Others it's Cap. Still more want something closer to Superman. You can't build a class that appeases Hawkeye people if they are getting Superman, and vice versa. So when someone says "I don't want Superman, I want Captain America" and people respond with "Why do you want fighters to not even be Hawkeye?" communication breaks down.

Honestly, until someone takes the time to concretely lay down WHAT the limits are and what that epic fighter is doing, this argument is pointless.

 

[dave2008]

They have very similar procedures of play: the GM decides what's at stake, and what follows from any successful check (especially out of combat).

EDIT:This too!

not to mention, hit points, attack rolls, saving throws, armor class, etc. People forget that the foundation of the game is 1e/2e so everything after is still very much a part of that DNA (even 4e).

 

[Micah Sweet]

I haven't decided myself (and don't remember 5e's stance), but I tend to agree with you. The problem I see with anti-magic in a fantasy world is magic is everywhere. Most monsters are magical to some extent: a giant would collapse under its own weight without magic, centaurs would probably just die, rocs would fall from the sky, etc. So it becomes a bit OP. I guess if used sparingly it can work.

I assume it would be used sparingly, for exactly that reason.

 

[Remathilis]

I haven't decided myself (and don't remember 5e's stance), but I tend to agree with you. The problem I see with anti-magic in a fantasy world is magic is everywhere. Most monsters are magical to some extent: a giant would collapse under its own weight without magic, centaurs would probably just die, rocs would fall from the sky, etc. So it becomes a bit OP. I guess if used sparingly it can work.

I think it was 2e's creative campaigns (I might be wrong) that gave the D&D multiverse magic ratings. They determined how magical a world is. I think it went 0-10, with your typical D&D setting at the time being a 6-7. Earth was a 0. And if a D&D character ended up on Earth, everything you said would happen, effectively. Magic would stop functioning, magical creatures would die/disappear, magical items rendered inert, etc.

However, such things would happen only if people moved from world to world. A beholder's anti-magic cone wouldn't cause a dragon to fall out of the sky, but a dragon that ended up in Portland would.

 

[dave2008]

I think it was 2e's creative campaigns (I might be wrong) that gave the D&D multiverse magic ratings. They determined how magical a world is. I think it went 0-10, with your typical D&D setting at the time being a 6-7. Earth was a 0. And if a D&D character ended up on Earth, everything you said would happen, effectively. Magic would stop functioning, magical creatures would die/disappear, magical items rendered inert, etc.

However, such things would happen only if people moved from world to world. A beholder's anti-magic cone wouldn't cause a dragon to fall out of the sky, but a dragon that ended up in Portland would.

That is interesting, that was not a part of BECMI. The very first Immortals adventure had the nascent god PCs travel to New York City!

 

[Remathilis]

That is interesting, that was not a part of BECMI. The very first Immortals adventure had the nascent god PCs travel to New York City!

2nd edition TSR man; brand continuity was a joke.