D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[Scribe]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm aiming for! I ran Shadowdark and OSE for my regular groups. While they love those games, they missed having robust characters with different combat options and special tricks they could use.

If the tone is right, I think this will be wildly successful.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Those are not limits on what spellcasting can do. They are limits only on when and how. The answer to "What can spellcasting do?" is everything. It can do everything. That's one of the reasons why, even with its sharply limited form compared to early editions, wish remains THE spell every high-level caster slavers to acquire.

Martial characters also have limits on when and how. For example, limited Rages per day, or limited maneuver dice, and a limited selection of maneuvers to choose from. So in that sense, both things already have limits regarding when and how. The old Berserker had the rather draconian limit that if they Frenzied too many times in a given day, they would straight-up DIE.

So. We have limits on when and how. Where are the limits on what?

As I said above, WotC believes putting limitations on what will lead to lower sales. Maybe they're right. In any case, I believe it would make for a very different game, and players don't like they're PCs being nerfed.

 

[Micah Sweet]

An excellent dichotomy, because...well...

There is no such thing as an actually simple caster. And there is no such thing as an actually complex martial. 5e has the most "complex" martial character (in 5.5e, probably either the Wild Heart Barbarian since your totem animal is per-rage now, or the Battle Master Fighter for obvious reasons) being dramatically simpler than the most "simple" caster (probably a blasting-focused Sorcerer? Or maybe a by-the-book Warlock of some kind?) It's frankly hard to even call any spellcaster simple, the closest being the Paladin...which is 5e's closest approximation of a true, innate caster-martial hybrid to begin with.

For my part, the heavily complex classes should reward clever play, but as a direct consequence, be frequently subject to "well, you chose the wrong situational abilities for this context, so...sorry, not much you can do right now." Conversely, the heavily simple classes should have a pretty good solid baseline of capability in all three pillars, but be inflexible with that kit: when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail, more or less. In the grey area between the greatest extremes thereof, there would ideally be classes that have a little bit of flexibility, but still mostly locked in.

The revised Champion Fighter actually isn't the worst (anymore), but it's still a bit short of the "something for every pillar" department. Had they not done the utterly infuriating design choice of making Tactical Mind eating your Second Wind uses, that would have gone a long way toward closing the remaining gap for players who really do just want The Simplest Experience, Please. And then, just as Eldritch Knight gives just the lightest taste of what a Wizard can do, Battle Master would thus be the lightest taste of what a proper Warlord class could do, with the uppermost echelons of a Warlord being moderately-high complexity--not as complex as the most complex casters (WIzards, presumably), but comparable to (say) a Cleric.

Level Up definitely fixes the "something for every pillar" problem, for every class. Martials are much more interesting there.

 

[Zardnaar]

The OS movement aims for simpler games where balance isn't a design goal. 4e is probably the hardest edition to design good content for due to all the interlocking mechanical elements. WotC didn't know how to design for 4e until a year into it's life!

You've had 13-17 years to figure it out.

I've pointed out if you do a 4.5 cutting it down to 15-20 levels might be a better bet.

Get a prototype up and running 5 levels 4-6 classes 4-8 races build on that

 

[Micah Sweet]

Since I'm currently playing Civilization 7, I'm noticing some similarities between those games and how D&D is released. Each version of Civ has its adherents, because they're all very distinct despite their outward similarities (much like D&D). Plenty of people loved 5, but didn't like 6. Plenty of people like 6, but aren't fans of 7. And even earlier editions like 4 still have adherents.

Which, I mean, is kind of what we have now. Each edition of D&D has its adherents, and all of them are still available to play. The only people who really need to battle for the "soul of D&D" are those who never got a version of the game that really spoke to their needs. And 4e is the one version that's still locked down and can't really be built upon, which also needs to change.

I'm one of those people who loved 5 and didn't care for 6. Is 7 any good?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think this argument is always a bit too glib. None of these versions of the game are "done" from a design perspective, and the pivot to something new has generally closed off any further development. The problem is worst for 4e, but in general, each edition outside of those the OSR likes is stuck in amber.

Maybe we get more content from 3rd parties, but we don't get further further iterated design.

Good thing we all have that great constellation of 3pp then!

 

[Umbran]

Recurring trend with 4E fans is they expect someone else to write it for them.

No, Zardnaar. That's a trait of most gamers, and you do folks a bit of insult to position it otherwise.

Most of us in the hobby, no matter what edition we play, have day jobs and lives that don't permit us to do significant game redesign and writing ourselves. We are lucky to have time to play.

So get off 4e players backs, please and thanks.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think there are two different issues contrasting here. I, certainly, do plenty of my own DIY stuff for my own tables and enjoy it.

But, there's also a different kind of enjoyment that comes from being a part of an active community and seeing what kind of creative energy is unleashed, and just being part of the discussions. That's why so many people participate in 5e threads who aren't even fans of 5e or aren't currently playing it.

And ultimately, that community energy is often more important than actually playing something closer to your preferences.

I wish that weren't true, but I cannot deny it.

 

[mamba]

The OS movement aims for simpler games where balance isn't a design goal. 4e is probably the hardest edition to design good content for due to all the interlocking mechanical elements. WotC didn't know how to design for 4e until a year into it's life!

and that was when, 15 years ago? One would think someone else could have figured it out in the meantime too, if they set their mind to it

 

[Micah Sweet]

High Level Campaign book maybe Spells and Magic had that.

That just reminds me how much I love 2e. They really left no stone unturned.